Title: Nathan Caddell -On Becoming an Ultramarathon Runner
Guest: Nathan Caddell
Nathan: I love to run, but I’ve openly will admit I’m not fast. I just enjoy being out there. And so this idea of going further instead of faster really appealed to me.
Peter: Welcome to the Biz and Life Done Well podcast, where we explore what it means and what it takes to do business and life well. I’m your host, Peter Wilson. If you’re like me, you’re intrigued by stories of common people who have achieved uncommon success in business and life. Join me as I interview fascinating people about how they got started, their successes and failures, their habits and routines, and what inspires them.
Peter: Today, my guest is Nathan Caddell. Nathan is a ultra marathoner and a friend of mine. He is also married to Emily Caddell. She is our director of marketing. They live in, the Boston area.
Welcome to the podcast.
Nathan: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I obviously, have a vested interest and, listen listen every time my wife’s on. So it’s fun to be on.
Peter: Good. That’s a good move. I wish I could say the same about my spouse, listening to my podcast.
Nathan: I I hear the editing, and get asked if I liked it pretty consistently. So, I’d just take the easy road. I don’t lie. I just go listen to it. There
Peter: you go. Good. Good. You have been running a long, long distances for a while now. How did you get started?
Nathan: It’s kind of a kind of a crazy story. So, probably, let’s see here, August, September 2019, before I had started running, I had started to experience like some chest pains. Not not too frequent, but my doctor was concerned enough that he sent me to the ER, and they had me stay overnight. My dad had passed away from a heart attack when I was younger. So
Peter: And how old are you or how old were you at that time?
Nathan: I was 29 at the time.
Peter: Okay. So I I wanted to set the context for our listeners who may not be able to see you and get an idea of how old you are.
Nathan: So Yeah. I was I was 29 at the time my dad passed away when he was 40. So yeah, I was in the hospital overnight and they ran a ton of tests and ultimately kind of concluded that my heart was like in fairly good condition. I had some like high cholesterol issues to look out for, but much more concerned. Like, I had I had high levels of kind of anxiety and depression that were causing some of the chest pains.
I remember this moment the night that I stayed in the hospital that I had to be there by myself. Emily couldn’t stay overnight. Our son hadn’t was at home with her. So I was laying in bed, just couldn’t sleep. And I kept having these like visions of all these reminders of like major life events that my dad wasn’t at, like my wedding, birth of my son, you know, just all these kind of like like milestone events in life.
And I had this image of my son hadn’t going through these events, and I wasn’t there. It just stuck with me of like, I’ve got to make some life changes in this moment. I wasn’t, like, very unhealthy, but, I mean, I was probably thirty five or forty pounds heavier than I am now. Yeah. High cholesterol, like I said, just not a healthy diet, not really working out at all.
Like, I would walk to our downtown office, and that was, like, my workout every week. Just Mhmm. Just not living a healthy life.
Peter: But meanwhile, you were a college athlete. Right?
Nathan: Yeah. I played soccer all through college. And that’s, you know, that’s a tough transition when someone forces you to work out two hours a day as part of your practice, and then you graduate, and that’s just not there anymore. Seems like life gets busy and filled with other things, and that can easily take a back seat in the head. Made the decision kind of then there I needed to do something.
And I had ran a half marathon in college, just decided I wanted to do it and train for it and made it happen. So running was kind of what I knew and sat down with Emily on my thirtieth birthday and told her, like, I want to run a marathon before the end of my thirtieth birthday. And she was like, All right, let’s do it. So kind of started training for one, started getting into running a little bit, and then obviously COVID happened and every marathon just shut down and went virtual. So I had done all this training and put in this work and definitely was not ready to run a marathon, but I wanted to do it because I had done all the work.
And so we put together a backyard marathon. Around my apartment complex. Yeah, it was a ridiculous idea that it was a lot of fun.
Peter: Super cool, I thought.
Nathan: We put it’s like a it’s like a point one nine mile loop or something like that around my apartment complex. I ran it, like, a 160 times. Wow. Of course, we scheduled it for a day, and it ended up being 60 all week. Really beautiful.
And then the Saturday of the run, it was, like, 90 degrees out. Just just everything that could go wrong kinda went wrong. But we had a bunch of friends over and, you know, did, like, a social distanced aid station in my backyard and, you know, made an event of it. And just from there, kind of fell in love with running and knew that I wanted to do more, more marathons. And, I get somebody handed me at some point kind of along this process, a book called North and North is the journey Scott Jerick, who’s like a very famous ultramarathoner, took to try to set the speed record for the Appalachian Trail.
So I tried to run the Appalachian Trail faster than anybody else. And it was kind of the first time my eyes were opened of like, oh, you can actually go further than a marathon. Like, that’s a thing.
Peter: Oh, Okay.
Nathan: I’d always thought running was you try to get faster and then you qualify for Boston and that’s that’s when you’ve made it. Like, I love to run, but I’ve openly will admit I’m not fast. I just enjoy being out there. And so this idea of going further instead of faster really appealed to me. That’s kind of how the journey started.
That’s what really kind of got me into running was just a lot of these factors of health and just finding something and becoming extremely passionate about it. And then having this realization that there’s more to it and there’s more distances to cover and more obstacles to jump over. And yeah.
Peter: Along the way, I’m I’m guessing that there may have been some people in your life. Obviously, Emily has had a big impact on supporting you and, of course, hadn’t. Are there others kind of in your tribe or maybe a newfound tribe that have kinda inspired you? Or
Nathan: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that’s one of the things I love about kind of the ultra running community is it’s just you go to these races and everybody is trying to do something crazy. Like, we we all understand you’re running 30 or 50 or 60 or a 100 miles, like, whatever it is, and nobody is at an aid station shaking their head like, no. This guy can’t do it.
Like, it’s just a group of people that all wanna see you succeed. I actually applied to be part of this program called Becoming Ultra, which is this deal where you sign up. They do a selection of eight runners, and then you get paired with a coach, and someone coaches you to run your first ultra marathon. And part of the deal is that you agree to co on the podcast and kinda talk about your journey and your experience. So Mhmm.
I was really fortunate to get kinda dropped into this community of seven other runners that were all going through the same thing as me, all trying to experience the same thing as me. We’re going through all the ups and downs of prepping for your first ultra together. And then because of COVID and because, you know, most races were shut down, probably five of the eight of us went to Colorado and ran an ultra together, kind of ran this ultra up through the mountains of Colorado. But, yeah, I mean, there’s been plenty of people here on top of Emily and people that I work with, people I go to church with that have just been extremely, like, supportive and encouraging. And but there’s just something about the ultra running community where you show up and you just think there’s no way I can go five more miles to the next aid station and somehow five people you’ve never met rally around you and get you the food that you need and get you the stuff that you need to make sure you can make it to the next aid station.
And it’s a it’s a really beautiful thing.
Peter: You’re you mentioned that Colorado was your first I believe that’s what you said, your first ultramarathon.
Nathan: Yeah.
Peter: What was the distance, and what was the elevation of that that run?
Nathan: So it was a 50 k.
Peter: 50 kilometer. What’s size here, boss?
Nathan: 31, 31 ish miles.
Peter: Okay.
Nathan: So not too much further than a marathon. About five miles more. Oh gosh. The elevation was like 9,000 feet. I think it’s one
Peter: of those. So it was
Nathan: it was it was an experience. Mhmm. The guy that puts it all together lives just kind of in this small mountain town, and he just set up we called it like the lollipop because you go out to a certain point and then you would go left or right, and it was a big circle. It was like five miles total, something like that. So we all ran it six times.
He set up an aid station in his garage basically of just drinks and food and everything you would need. You know, it was like it was it was fun. It was amazing. You know, you’re running past people that are doing the same thing that you’re doing. You know, just again, everybody’s encouraging each other.
You’ve listened to everybody’s story. So, you know, you know, everything that’s brought people to this point. People knew about my story of being in the hospital with my dad. You know, they had shared similar experiences that made them want to jump into running. And, yeah, it was just, you know, you’re you’re running past five people and high fiving each other, and it was it was really cool.
It was a it was a tough race. There was a snowstorm the day of the race. And so we were supposed to snow for, like, two hours, and I think it took me, like, six and a half to seven hours to finish my run, and it snowed the whole time. Just dumped the whole time. So it’s a it was a it was a pretty like, I I promise that not all of my races have miserable weather.
There’s there’s some good ones out there, but my first two were tough
Peter: for sure. 90 in Boston.
Nathan: Mhmm.
Peter: Probably massive human humidity. And then in Colorado, wow. What did you learn about yourself after you finished that first ultra?
Nathan: Yeah. There’s a lot. I mean, that you when you’re when you’re running for five plus hours, you just have time to think and process. There’s kind of this old expression from I think Billy Yang, who’s a filmmaker, has a film called this. And so it’s kind of been something I’ve adopted that talks about ultramarathons as life in a day.
I mean, in an ultramarathon, you experience all the emotions and all the highs and lows of life. You just pack it into one day. I know there was definitely a lot of that in that first run. But the biggest thing I remember taking away was I remember having this realization that I’d lived my life. I always lived my life someday.
And what I mean is in my head, I had always I’d wanted to run a marathon since college, and I just kept telling myself I’m gonna do it someday. Mhmm. And I had all these goals and dreams that I was gonna do someday. And that was the first time that I think I’ve I’d I decided, no. I’m actually gonna do it.
Like, I’m I’m not gonna wait until someday. I’m gonna start today and make it happen. And it kinda helps when you get chosen for and you have to go share your experience with, you know, however many people that are listening to a podcast. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. I just in that in that ultra, I decided I wasn’t gonna do that anymore. And if I had a dream, I was gonna go for it. Or if I had a goal, I was gonna chase it. Mhmm.
I wasn’t gonna tell myself that someday there’ll be more time to do it because that just has never been the case. And so, yeah, I just made the commitment, kind of this realization. I need to stop living for someday and start living today.
Peter: Wow. I am not a runner at all, but I’ve done a couple halves, and I I don’t I don’t think I necessarily experienced that life in a day like you’re talking about, but the thing that I recall was the amount of camaraderie and support from nearly everybody along the way. Like, there’s there’s always a couple dudes, you know, with their headphones on, and they’re just trucking. Right?
Nathan: They could
Peter: you know? But I’m not gonna keep up with those guys anyway. But I just remember, being out there and meeting a few people. I still remember those people today.
Nathan: Mhmm.
Peter: And I think I probably had, like, a half hour conversation with them.
Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you’re just you’re just both running. Like, you’re not going anywhere. There’s nothing to do.
And there’s definitely I don’t wanna make it sound you know, there’s very competitive ultra runners.
Peter: Sure.
Nathan: There are people that are trying to win races and, you know, are sponsored by shoe companies and wanna show up. But even then, you you don’t you don’t run a 100 miles and just don’t talk to anybody. Right. Like, no no one puts their head down for fifteen hours and doesn’t say a word. So even those guys are, you know, they’re hanging out with each other and having great conversation.
And then, you know, the men and the women that show up to win the race, like, they get you get to a point where it’s it’s kind of race time and things shift a little bit. But there’s just such a camaraderie even among, like, elite runners that it’s just there’s just something special about running. Mhmm. Just don’t think their support system’s quite like it.
Peter: What did you learn about your faith, if anything, along the way?
Nathan: It’s a great question. I I think one of the things running has taught me, and it definitely applies to my faith, but it it applies kind of holistically in life as well Uh-huh. Is just the need to be disciplined. In terms of faith, you know, there’s so many you know, I I read a ton of books I love to read. As a pastor, you know, I’m trying to, you know, kind of gain knowledge so I can help share it with other people.
And Yeah. That’s that’s all great. But I read I read things, and I know that they would have a massive shift in my life or would make, you know, great change or would help me get to this deeper level of faith that I’m trying to jump into or I’m trying to pursue. And if you’re not disciplined enough to to take the steps, it it just doesn’t matter. And I think running has taught me that you just need to you need to find the ways to discipline yourself to get there.
Peter: Yeah. It’s one of the things that I’ve kinda run into in business and in, you know, just life as well is consistency.
Nathan: Mhmm.
Peter: That, no matter how how small the thing may seem in terms of, you know, I gotta get up and do this. Like, I’ve got this routine where I’ll play squash on Monday, do a hit workout on Tuesdays, and play squash again on Thursday. And and I’ve found that when I keep that routine, I wouldn’t necessarily call it disciplined, but it’s just forcing myself to keep a routine that it really, has made a difference in my life personally. The thing that really kept me on track though was not some inner personal willpower, but it was more about fear of disappointing those that are going to be waiting for me down at the gym, for example. Right?
So it’s like, it’s almost like, it’s not a fear of missing out, but it’s almost, I’ve set myself up for this situation where if I didn’t show up, it’s going to have consequences. That’s kind of one thing that I’ve sort of learned along the way. I mean, it’s sort of a cheat, I guess, in a way for discipline. Have you, have you had any, similar thoughts or experiences with regard to that?
Nathan: Yeah. I mean, I definitely I run with people for sure. And so it’s good to, you know, know that my buddy’s gonna show up at 09:00 on Saturday morning, and we’re gonna go run 10 miles. And so I have to be ready to do it. Yeah.
I have tried very, very hard. You know, I’m married. I have a kid. I have another one on the way. I have a job.
Peter: Congrats, by
Nathan: the way. Yeah. Thank you. I don’t want my life to revolve around running. I want running to fit in my life.
Peter: Got it.
Nathan: And so I’ve tried very like, I’ll I’ll set my schedule because I’ll have you know, to take Sunday school, and then I’ll have, you know, meetings with people at the church that wanna talk about stuff that’s going on in their life. And then I’ll have to write a talk for Sunday or, you know, reach out to a small group leader who something happened in their small group and then you talk or whatever it is. Mhmm. And I’ll set my schedule, and then I’ll my run will fit where there’s a gap, which means sometimes my running happens at six in the morning. Sometimes it happens at lunch.
Sometimes it happens at five in the evening. It just it it benefits. And I know that’s not maybe the thing everybody would do. Maybe that, like, doesn’t fit everyone at everyone else’s schedule or but I I wanna be a person who runs and not a runner who has a life. You know?
I want I I have other I have other bigger priorities than getting my run-in. But for me to reach kind of the goals that I wanna reach in running, I have to get it in.
Peter: So so when you say get it in, so on average, how much are you running a week, a month? Which what what sort of your depends, obviously, your training at different times, but, you know, give me an average.
Nathan: Yeah. Probably average, maybe 55 to 60 miles a week.
Peter: A week?
Nathan: Yeah. A week. So I’ll get up. You know, I’m like, you’re you’re training for you know? So my next race is a 100 mile race.
So I’m that’s what I’m training for. So at my peak, I’ll be running maybe 75 miles a week. But most of the time, I’ll be running 45 to 50, somewhere in there. Wow. So you build up.
And as you get closer to the race, you kinda have a peak training time where you’re doing more miles than you ever would. But right now, I’m running, like, a lot less. Like, I think I ran I so I just finished a race two weeks ago. Mhmm. So I took a week off, and then I ran, like, 20 miles the the second week, and I’ll be running, I don’t know, was it, like, 35 this week with some just strength training and stuff like that just trying to get my legs back.
So it it fluxes quite a bit, but I would say probably probably the 50 to 55 is what it averages out to.
Peter: Oh my. I mean, you must be going through gear like crazy.
Nathan: Yeah. I I’m probably getting a new pair of running shoes every, like, six weeks or so.
Peter: Oh my gosh.
Peter: It’s Be nice to be sponsored. Right?
Nathan: Yeah. If any if there are any sponsors that are checking out this podcast, I could use some stuff. So
Peter: Alright. You heard it here first.
Nathan: That’s right.
Peter: That’s a lot of gear. What does that do to your body? I mean, to feel it. You’re probably well beyond sort of like, Hey, I’m going go run my first marathon, obviously. Know, what is that like?
I mean, do you have, like, a massive food intake or, like, how do you even keep up?
Nathan: Yeah. Probably the probably more expensive than gear is the amount of food that I eat. I think my family can attest to that. Yeah. It’s I mean, as as far as body, once you get to kind of a certain level of fitness, you don’t really feel the effects as much anymore.
I mean, when I’m in kind of peak mode, I’ll be sore at night. But Mhmm. Like, this week is like, I I’m not sore this week. Wow. You can you can kinda tell when you go for your runs, especially after a race that, like, your legs aren’t as bouncy as they are.
Like, it’s it’s hard to push off and push forward for a few weeks until you get that strength back a little bit. But you just don’t, you know, you don’t notice, you know, big soreness. And even after my race, which was like 52 miles, I was really only sore for maybe a couple days. And, you know, I I couldn’t have run on the third day. Or if I tried to, it would have been really bad.
Mhmm. Would have been very slow. You know, your fitness isn’t back. But just you get to a point where you’re just kinda have built the strength and the endurance in your legs that the soreness isn’t there. But, yeah, the food intake is crazy because you’re you know, I’m burning, like, a thousand calories every day on my run.
So I’m basically having to eat two other meals somewhere in there to try to make up for it. And, yeah, it’s, it’s great because I love to eat, but, it’s not it’s not so great on the budget sometimes.
Peter: Right. I should mention you are, as I recall, vegetarian. Right?
Nathan: We’re vegan.
Peter: Vegan. Okay. Got it. Right. So you’ve got that additional challenge there to you know I I mean, know, for me, it’d be just like grab a burger, but I realize that’s not not an option nor is that necessarily a good option anyway.
But
Nathan: There’s there’s plenty of and beyond burgers that get consumed in our house for sure. Got it.
Peter: So if you were talking to somebody who was, thinking about, you know, listening to your story and thinking, yeah, I think that’s something I’d like to do, what what would you what do you what you know, I’m sure you get approached all the time by people like, hey, tell me about that. What what what do you tell people?
Nathan: I think the first thing I would say is don’t don’t sign up for an ultra for your first race. You know, give yourself give yourself some time. You know? Even you you can even look at like, you can sign up for a five k or a 10 k and plan to use that as, like, a training run for a longer run. Like, you can have the goal of you wanna run a 50 k, but give yourself plenty of time.
There’s no rush. Know that it’s probably not gonna be real fun for a couple weeks. I mean, anytime you start something new, it’s just really difficult, especially in running from conversations I’ve had. People just wanna start running and be really good at it, and it’s just not it’s just not the case. You know, I was really bad at it when I started.
I was barely getting two and a half to three miles in. I was extremely slow. I probably did not look graceful at all whatsoever. You know, it’s just it just is you know, starting new things is tough.
Peter: So you you you started kind of at ground zero, it sounds like.
Nathan: When I started running, I was probably alright. So I was probably, like, 35 heavier than I am now. Yeah. Didn’t really know anything about it outside of ran in college for soccer. And Right.
It you just I just put on shoes and try to go three miles a day for three or four days or two and a half miles or whatever I could get in and then just kinda built up from there. You know, there’s there’s books out there that have, like, a training plan if you wanna run a half. So it’ll tell you, you know, for the eight weeks leading up to your half marathon, run this on each day. I think I had I think I ran, marathon. The book’s called marathon by Hallie King is the one I did.
But there’s tons if you if you look up training plans on Google, you can find tons of stuff. So it you know, if you have a goal race or you do sign up for a race, it probably helps to have some kind of plan that tells you what to what to run and when to run and take a little bit of the guesswork out. It it’s a process of learning to run, and I think that’s the bigger bigger thing. Whether you’re you’re doing five k’s or 10 k’s or 100 milers or whatever it is you end up doing. Like, if you want to run to get in shape and you hate it, you’re not gonna keep doing it.
And you need to find something that you love that you’re gonna do consistently. And running just happens to be that thing for me. So give yourself some time. Know that it’s gonna be hard and unfun for a few weeks. You’ll you’ll get there.
Like, it’ll it’ll a switch will turn, and you’ll start to love it and enjoy it.
Peter: The book that I read when I was endeavoring to do some running, and it was when I was about turning 40 ish.
Nathan: Mhmm.
Peter: It was when I was I think I ran my first half when I was, like, turning 40 that year was a book called No Need for Speed. The guy who wrote the book, it’s an amazing story. The guy was massively overweight, had a terrible lifestyle. On his first events that he would do, he talked about running for a while, then walking, and then, you know, going into a Starbucks and
Nathan: Mhmm.
Peter: You know, grabbing a coffee or something. His, overriding theme in that book is give yourself some grace. I mean, the name of the book says it all, no need for speed.
Nathan: Right.
Peter: You know, we go as fast as we can, but the fact that you’re out there, that, you know, the fact that you’re going to go slower is not a reason why you should, not do it and just sit on the couch. Right. Right? And that was for me, that was kind of a motivator. For others, that’s not necessarily going be enough.
A lot of other people are going to be more competitive and I got to But then you have this whole idea of your personal record as well. So and I’m I’m guessing you probably run into that from time to time where you’re trying to beat your own time.
Nathan: That’s the beautiful thing about running is that you are your competition. Yeah. You know? Unless you’re an elite and your livelihood depends on you finishing in a a top spot, which if so, don’t listen to my advice. You know
Peter: what mean. But, like, for I’m not gonna have those guys on the podcast anyways.
Nathan: For the average person who just is trying to run, I think there’s always a temptation to look at other people’s times and feel like you should reach that. But the like I said, the beauty of running is that you get to look at your own time and try to beat that. And there are like, you can see incremental, like, increases in your speed, and you can see how your time is coming down and how you’re getting faster and how you’re getting stronger. And, like, that that’s all measurable within yourself. You don’t have to look for outside competition.
You can compete with yourself. There’s always, you know, like, I think no need for speed like that. That’s kind of a beautiful, like, sentiment. Like, you don’t have to be the fastest person. You just have to keep putting the work in.
And eventually, you’re gonna be faster than you were yesterday, and eventually, you’re gonna be fast you know? I’ve seen that. I’ve seen my time come down, you know, over the last three years. And sometimes your time doesn’t come down. You just realize, like, your heart rate did, and you’re not working as hard to go that speed anymore.
And you’re getting stronger that way. And there’s just all kinds of ways you can see yourself bettering yourself.
Peter: Yeah. If you think about it, if you want to be the fastest, there’s only one person that’s going to win the race or maybe two, one per gender.
Nathan: So Yeah. And, you know, I I think it’s true. It might not be as true in five k’s or 10 k’s, but anytime you hit a half marathon and up, there’s so many things that can go wrong. Anything can go this like, I just did my 52 mile race, and my stomach would not let me eat real food. It was not having it.
So I had a ton of gels and drank a lot of my calories from, like, drink mix and stuff like that. And there’s just you just don’t know. The the end of the race was up and over this mountain.
Peter: Mhmm.
Nathan: And you have in the last probably three or four miles, like, one mile just complete descent. Like, it is straight down. And I didn’t I didn’t bring trail shoes because I didn’t know that was gonna be the case. So I’m on street shoes, like, literally sitting on rocks trying to slide off and reach another rock. That’s just that’s just running.
Stuff stuff happens. You know? And so I think just being able to to adjust to that and, you know, being okay with I’m I’m gonna be my best today, whatever the circumstances are. I think running is a lot more about adjusting to the problems that you find than trying to be the best person at the race. You know?
And sometimes the best person at the race is just the person that adjusted to the problems a little bit better than everyone else or was lucky enough to not experience the problems. Like, they didn’t have stomach issues on that day. Right. They didn’t have something happen with their shoes. You know, there’s a thousand things, like I said, that can go wrong.
Figuring out how to adjust your race according to those problems is gonna make a huge difference, and it’s gonna be the way you compete against yourself more than anything else.
Peter: Sounds like good lessons for life too.
Nathan: Yeah. I hope so.
Peter: I hope so. Well, Nathan, this has been amazing. I’d I’d I’m just amazed to hear your story and I know we’re just scratching the surface here. Is there anything you’d like to share with our listeners?
Nathan: I would definitely encourage. I don’t know if all your listeners are big readers. Readers are leaders is what I was always- There you go. Drilled in me in college. Definitely go check out North by Scott Jerick even if you’re not a runner.
The kind of life lessons and the things that he learned along the way. This is a, like, month and a half, two months journey of him trying to speed run the Appalachian Trail. There’s a lot of adjustments that happen, a lot of things that can go wrong and do go wrong. You know, I learned a lot about life just from the book itself. So definitely go check that out, and thanks for you know, I wanna say thanks for having me on.
It’s been a ton of fun, and I’m always happy to talk about running a little bit. So I appreciate it.
Peter: Great. Well, thank you. So we’ll put a link to the book in the, we’ll put it in the show notes, put a link to your Instagram if that’s okay
Nathan: as well.
Peter: Definitely. Folks wanna follow you a little bit. Nathan, thanks a lot.
Nathan: Definitely. Thanks for having me.
Peter: Thanks for listening to this episode of Biz and Life Done Well with Peter Wilson. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and most of the other popular podcast platforms. Please tell your friends about us and leave us a review so even more people will find out about us. Thanks again. We’ll see you soon.
