014: Paul Lee – What Is SEO And Why Should I Care?

Title: Paul Lee – What Is SEO And Why Should I Care?

Guest: Paul Lee

Peter: Welcome to the Biz and Life Done Well podcast, where we explore what it means and what it takes to do business and life well. I’m your host, Peter Wilson. If you’re like me, you’re intrigued by stories of common people who have achieved uncommon success in business and life. Join me as I interview fascinating people about how they got started, their successes and failures, their habits and routines, and what inspires them. So today, my guest is Paul Lee of Leeway Creative.

He is an SEO expert and a digital marketer as well. Paul, why don’t you introduce yourself? Kinda give us a little background.

Paul: Sure, Peter. I’ve been doing this for twenty something years in different formats, running websites, and then building other people’s websites. Then once you’ve built a website, you want people to find it, so I kind of became an SEO specialist on my own just out of necessity, and then now, Leeway Creative provides SEO services to other companies nationally as well as locally. We have a real, I think, a real focus on local SEO, just trying to help people navigate how to get found by Google. And, of course, once you’re found by Google, then you can be found by everybody else as they dominate the market.

Peter: Right. So let’s, let’s take a step back. Just explain briefly what SEO is. Sure.

Paul: So SEO, search engine optimization, is just it’s not an attempt to manipulate Google in any way, but it’s attempt to understand Google and other search engines, what they want to see, an attempt to give them those things so that you can give signals to them that the content that you’re providing is valuable, that it’s authoritative, that it is something that is usable and new to consumers, that they’re the things they’re looking for. Google wants to answer people’s questions. It wants to provide them with solutions, so what we’re trying to do as SEO specialists is to help make sure that our clients’ information is presented in the best way to Google so that it can provide those then as answers to people. That, of course, makes, you know, traffic on their websites, at least conversions, and all those things as well, but it’s that interface between the client and the client’s information and the presentation of that and then getting that to Google the best possible way, and then Google passes it on to the consumer who then and then it goes on from there.

Peter: So Mhmm.

Paul: That’s a key thing.

Peter: So, I mean, let’s just cut to the chase here. We’re really talking about not search engine optimization, although Bing is certainly relevant. We really talk about optimizing your website and things around it so you show up better in the Google search rankings. Yeah. Right?

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely Google. I mean, you’re, Google is the the gorilla on the block, and that’s okay because then it gives us some kind of clear guidelines on what what they like, what they don’t like. You know, it’s all about feeding Google helpful information so that it knows what to do, and it’s about being found.

And so if you, you know, if you were, when you were back in the Yellow Pages ad, you did your ad the best way you could. You know, you designed it the best way, the right proper size, and the, you know, sharp images and everything else, cause you want it to be found. The same thing here when you’re doing your website is that you want to not just look good to your eyes, but you want to look good to the eyes of Google and therefore to the consumers that use Google. They are using Google to answer simple problems. They’re in your local town, and they wanna find pizza.

So they type in pizza delivery, and Google knows that they want pizza delivery, not nationally because that’s silly. They want it in the location that they’re at. So it gives them a set of search results. If they drove 20 miles west and they typed in pizza delivery, they’d get different results because Google knows where they are. That’s where we start to get into the difference between national SEO and local SEO, and local is particularly important because then you’re talking about not just, you know, is my data formatted correctly?

Do my pages look good? Do they readable? All those sorts of things, but also, am I giving Google the right signals that I am local so that, you know, a search for a dentist in Shoreline comes up with the right people, you know, not not showing you people who are too far away to drive to. Mhmm. And that’s where low local SEO gets very interesting.

Peter: So one of the things that I was looking at recently was Google Trends, and I was looking at the term or the search phrase near me. Google Trends is a free tool where you can see the popularity of different search terms on Google. So you can compare, you know, J Lo to Britney Spears and things like that. One of the things I was shocked at is the spike in near me searches in the last eighteen months to two years, obviously driven by mobile phone searches, which really reinforces that need to focus on local search if you’re a business that provides services in a local area.

Paul: Right. Exactly. I mean, you’re seeing the reason one of the reasons that you’re seeing the near me thing is that it’s such a helpful thing for consumers to type into their Google Maps searches. Because it’s not just, you know, google.com. It’s also Google Maps, which is probably even, especially for local, even more of a key thing.

You want to really rank highly in maps. Near me is such a nice shorthand to say, and it solves the problem. I need to find a pizza delivery near me, not 50 miles away. So Google does know kind of where you’re at, but often in maps, it’s specifically, you know, I need something right near here, and that drives that trend that you’re seeing. And that’s gonna just grow even more as you see the prevalence of maps and local searching coming up even more and more.

Peter: Right. One of the things I’ve seen is that on the search results page on Google, the map listings actually are taking precedence over the other listings on the page. So if you look at a typical page on Google search results, you’ll see some ads at the top, and then you see the map listings. And then below that, you see additional search results. But that maps listing seems to be driven from a thing called the Google My Business page.

Do you wanna talk a little bit about Google My Business and Yeah. Yeah. Google My Business. Yeah.

Paul: It’s it’s really grown in its importance in local SEO in the last year or two, and what you’re going see, I think, is it’s going to grow even more. Google My Business is just listing. It’s kind of an expanded listing of your information that goes along with your Google Maps listing. Originally, it’s just so that you knew the name of the company was correct, the address was correct, the phone number was correct, maybe your hours were listed in there, but now Google has expanded what that thing can do. So now, not only are you listing name, address, phone number, and maybe hours, you’re also listing the services that you offer, a little brief description of your business, some photos, photos that are uploaded by your customers, photos that are uploaded by you.

There can also be Google loves to tie reviews in there, and of course, there’s also a way to post articles or what’s happening, or events that are coming up, or sales that you’re doing, and Google loves well, if there’s anything Google loves, it’s it’s Google. They they wanna see they wanna see you using Google. And so when you use Google My Business to its full, when you’re really using all those things, questions and answers, and you’re and you’re doing regular posting and things like that, it’s signaling to Google, and it’s stroking their ego for one thing, but at least what it’s really doing is, and and this is valuable, is is, signaling that you’re active, that you are participating with your customers, that you are, you know, authoritative and speaking, you know, that you’re not like a fly by night kind of thing that just set up a quick website, and, you know, that you’ve been around. And that kind of activity, it’s part of the whole basket of signals that Google takes into account, but they I think they weight Google nobody knows exactly how much any of these are weighted, but it’s the the research shows that Google My Business has a bigger influence now than it has ever had before.

Peter: So if I’m a business owner and I’ve just now hearing about Google My Business, what are a couple things I can do to check on my Google My Business listing? I mean, one thing comes to mind is Google the name of your business and see what pops up. Can you add anything to that?

Paul: Yeah. If you if you’re so if you’re on maps or, you know, you and you you search for your business name, you should see it come up, and, you know, hopefully, there might be a list, a link that says claim this business. That means that you don’t have, nobody has actually said that they own this business to Google. Google just knows that the business exists from some other records. So there’s actually no sort of owner or administrator of that account.

That’s a problem for you. If that’s actually your business, then you need to claim it as quickly as possible so that nobody else does, basically. You don’t want somebody else controlling your hours or your book photos or descriptions and things. You claim the business if it’s not already claimed, and they’ll go through a verification process. There’s ways to do it where they can call your business or they can actually mail a postcard to you.

Good old fashioned snail mail just to verify that there really is a business there. However, you go through that process, you become verified. Now you’re able to update to make sure everything is consistent and all that stuff yourself. Just so that I think the first step, as you said, Google yourself, make sure that your Google My Business listing is claimed by you. Mhmm.

I’ve often come into situations where, you know, the web developer that built my website five years ago, he claimed my Google My Business listing for me, but has since disappeared, which they seem to have a strange habit of doing. I don’t know why people do that, but they’re just, you know, gone away, don’t know how to get ahold of them. Well, it’s gonna be a little bit of a chore to get that back, but it’s important that you do. Don’t don’t put it off and be like, well, I’m sure this will sort itself out at some point.

Peter: So claim your listing, get your listing verified, and then, control your listing. Obviously, that’s, stuff that you help businesses with as well. Once you do all that, though, there’s a a bunch of other things you should do, can do, and you help businesses with as well. You wanna talk about that a little bit?

Paul: Sure. I mean, so you’re trying to in a variety of ways, you’re trying to signal to Google, but but but all Google’s really trying to make you do is do business the right way. It’s trying to make sure that you engage with your customers, that you provide good content. You know, people used to try to do SEO by rigging things by what we call black hat, which is evil hacker kind of stuff where they would trick Google into things. Well Google’s getting smarter and so that’s a bad idea.

So basically what you want to do is treat Google as though it’s a customer. So Google wants good content. So if your website inadequately explains what you do, then it isn’t gonna rank highly, you know.

Peter: You mean like the services you provide, Exactly, area that you

Paul: exactly. What, you cover King County, you cover Snohomish County, what counties do you cover? What services do you provide? And also to, you know, the kinds of things that customers are looking for. So if you are a roofing company, you know, that you are explaining things about roofs and you know, what you should be doing during the winter and what signs to look for for leaks and things like that, that’s helpful to your customers.

It also signals to Google that A, I’m trying to be helpful to my customers and B, I’m knowledgeable about my product and my services and my industry, which is all good stuff. And as you do that, you do that through blog contents, you do that through high quality pages on your website that are well structured and have good descriptions and have a good number of words, not these like 100 word pages that are just quickly kind of thrown together, but we actually break down what you do and how you do it. When you do all that, Google gets, you know, going to trust you. And it’s all about building this kind of trust and reputation with Google and then they go on. So it’s like it, so part of that’s from Google My Business.

Part of that is that side of things. Part of that is the content and the structure of your content on your website. Part of that also is how many other people link to you. Google figures that if there’s a website that’s been around for five years and only two people link to it, it’s not a very valuable website. So it would it automatically lowers kind of the the your results and the rankings.

If it’s linked to by 30,000 people, then Google says, ah, people must be finding this useful. Otherwise, they wouldn’t link to it. So building those links, which is something that takes time and it takes some expertise to kind of know where to find them, but it’s also about building good content. Because if you have good content and a good valuable website, people will then link to it naturally. So that’s where natural SEO comes in rather than kind of forcing it or buying links or things like that.

We’re not in the business of that. What we’re trying to do is to build this as organically and naturally as we can by providing good content. So when you do that, Google says, ah, this guy, this gal, she knows what she’s talking about. She really is the therapist for this suburb, and this is what this is and then and you rise to the to the rankings.

Peter: We’ll be right back after this quick word from our sponsor.

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Peter: back to biz and life done well with Peter Wilson. So let’s talk about the value, the benefit here. So we’ve just talked about sort of getting higher in the rankings on Google. Why should I even care about that?

Paul: Because I the last number I saw recently was said 75% of people don’t go past the first page.

Peter: On the Google search results?

Paul: On the Google search results, yeah. So you mentioned before the map pack, the three map results, and then there’s maybe a couple ads, and there’s 10 search results. So maybe on a page there’s there’s fourteen, fifteen links. Some of those are going to be not like, say you search for therapists in Edmonds. Some of those are not going to be actual therapists, they’re going to be an article about the 10 best therapists in Seattle or something like that.

So those will be kind of not individual businesses, but maybe articles about some businesses. So of those 15 links on the front page, maybe 10 of them are actual businesses. And the ones at the top, the ones in the map pack and the ones at the very top of the organic search results are clicked on exponentially more than the rest of the ones on the page. So the value of getting into the, especially on the first page, but then especially in the first half of the first page, is tremendous. So when you, for each time you go up from page number 11, you get onto number 10, that’s a big jump actually.

And then in number nine you get more and more traffic because more and more people are likely to click on you. But when you think about it, you talk about what’s the value of it to me? Well, you’re trying to run your business. You’re trying to carve out a niche for yourself. You’re trying to do the best customer service you can, build the best website and it represents who you are and all those things.

But hopefully, you know, somebody has to find you. So, you know, you’re a therapist and you know, in your suburb there’s 20 other therapists. So now that means that of the nine or 10 that are gonna be on the front page, you know, 10 or 11, whatever, are not gonna be. So you’re winnowing them out. And if you’re like you guys are in the Seattle area, there’s suburbs next to suburb next to suburb, there’s 20 therapists in Edmonds, and there’s 20 more in Lynnwood, there’s 20 in Kirkland and etcetera, it goes around.

Now you’re talking 6,100, 150, whatever competitors. Now the value becomes even higher because you do not want to be buried page five, page six of the results. You want to be on page one. So, it’s simple kind of napkin math that we can all do is we can say, wait a second here. I’ve got how many competitors and I wanna make sure that I’m I’m on the front, you know?

It’s gotta be me. It’s There can be only one, number one. It’s super valuable territory. And there are reasons that you may say, I can’t be number one, maybe for budgetary reasons or things like that, but I just need be on the front page. Yeah, or maybe you’re lucky and maybe there’s nobody in your niche, in your suburb and you are ranking organically beautifully.

But for most of us, I’ll say, most of us, we to be ranking high, we want to be in the front page, we want to be we have competitors. We may love them as comrades and people that we work with, we shake their hand and smile at them, but you do wanna beat them. So in business. So that’s why we wanna do this.

Peter: So this sounds like a lot of work. Let’s say I don’t have time to do all this. I’m trying to run my business. You know, what should I be looking for if I’m gonna work with somebody else? What sorts of things should I be looking for in an SEO company?

Paul: Well, I think, I mean, one of the kind of the underlying question to that is can you do it yourself? And the answer is yes, but it’s, you know, your mileage may vary as they say, you know. It’s the same thing with building a website. You know, somebody will say, well, my nephew, Phil, can build me a website. And you say, okay.

Well, then have your nephew, Phil, build you a website, and we’ll see how it goes. Or you can have a a company that knows, you know, that really that’s their business to do that. The same thing happens in SEO. Can you learn some stuff? Can you apply some stuff?

Absolutely. I would say start off by making sure that everything is incredibly consistent so that when you call your company by its name, it’s always the same name. When you use the same phone number, when use the same address, things like that. So you can start off with that. That’s like a basic thing.

Peter: So basic blocking and tackling type stuff.

Paul: Exactly. But where most businesses that I’ve seen fall down with this is the consistency in the implementation. They have all the best of intentions. They wanna save themselves some money, maybe, and they think, you know what, we’ll do this ourselves. Generally, what happens is it becomes a source of guilt rather than a source of success for them.

Peter: Oh, it’s like, I know I need to do this, but I’m not doing it.

Paul: So Yeah. Yeah.

Peter: So they

Paul: stay up at night and go, oh, why did I? Oh. Okay. I need to get that done.

Peter: So you can do it yourself. Let’s say you’re like, okay. Scratch that. I wanna consider the alternatives. I wanna work with another company to help me do it or to do it for me.

What should I be looking for when I have those conversations? Yeah.

Paul: And the thing is, you know, there’s there’s lots of guys out there. You know, people I know get hit by unsolicited, you know, SEO requests pretty much every day from somebody somewhere in The Ukraine or The Philippines or India or whatever. So there’s a lot of that going around. And I think what you actually need, so you need consistency. You need a relationship maybe with the person that you’re talking to, so that it isn’t some faceless kind of a deal where you’re just a number to somebody.

You need somebody that is not gonna over promise. If you have anybody that tells you, I promise you to get you onto the front page by such and such a time, or I will get you the number one spot no matter what, and you promised, I would say, as the old expression goes for Monty Python, run away, run away. It’s not legit. It’s an impossible thing to promise because you’re not in control of it. All you can do, all we can do, is follow through, provide the best possible things we can do, and when it’s up to Google to rank.

So if somebody promises something that only Google can deliver, and they’re not Google, then they’re absolutely scamming you in some way. Right. So I would stay away from them.

Peter: One of the things that I’ve seen in the past is some companies have pitched some particular strategy to rank top in the Google search results, and it actually worked for a very brief period of time. This is a while back. There were a lot of folks that were using things called link farms to provide links to websites, for example, that would help your Google search rankings, and it was kind of the latest craze until Google shut it down. And then the people who were in the top just dramatically dropped when Google had a, update to their algorithm. And then after that, I noticed there was companies that were selling services to detoxify links.

Paul: Yep. So it was

Peter: like, first, they made this big mess. They got you to the top of search rankings, and then it totally messed up some companies. So that’s one thing you don’t wanna do. Right?

Paul: No. So you’re looking at, you know, from the old hacker terminology, there’s black hat and there’s white hat. You know, there’s the bad guys, good guys, and there’s what’s called gray hat. Gray hat is the in between. We’re we’re treading the line between you know, we we know this isn’t exactly what Google intended for us to be doing and this is kind of a manipulation of their algorithm, but it’s not technically against their rules.

And so we think you can get away with it. And that’s what those link farms were doing. There’s been a whole lot of those kinds of behaviors. And grey hat always catches up with you. You eventually, like you said, they change their algorithm.

It gets smarter every day. And when they change that, not only do they bury the links that you thought you had built up over this time and your rankings all of a sudden drop through the floor, but they’ll actually penalize you. So that’s where that other things come, you know, so as a business you become toxic to Google and that’s the last place you wanna be. And so you have to have your stuff cleaned up and try but there’s not really you can say, I disavowed this link. This link, Ily I didn’t want this link.

But Google’s not actually required to respect that. So if you have 50,000 links that you did sort of sketchy, not really real, you know, and then you try to disavow them all, Google may still brand you as this is a troublemaker. So, you know, we don’t wanna do any of that. If people start talking about, you can spend this much money and we’ll get this many links from this many, we got this people that can create this stuff, or, I would start backing away. What you want is the boring, slow, I guess it would be considered, but it’s the right way of doing things.

It’s all they’re trying to do, and I actually respect this from Google, all they’re trying to do is make people do business right. They’re trying to not reward people for stuffing a whole bunch of keywords in the footer of their website and making it the same color as the background so that people people wouldn’t read it, but Google would read it. That’s an old trick. And they figured that out. And the reason why they figured out and why they penalized people for it is because it isn’t helpful.

I mean, isn’t helpful for the consumer trying to decide who he’s gonna go to for his chiropractic. It’s not for who’s gonna go to buy his car. So all they want is for people to actually help their customers, have relationships If with they did that, if they have relationship with local businesses and other local companies and they get links to them, that’s fantastic. That means that they’re actually providing a helpful service. Google just wants to know that.

All they’re trying to do is get the signals right, go into their algorithm so that they can get people’s intent delivered to them. Google is all about trying to figure out the intent of the customer. What is he trying to do? If I’m searching for this, I or do I wanna buy it? Am I researching it?

Is it something local? Do I want something national? Google is trying to guess in a sense and it’s trying to learn all those things from the simple thing you type when you type pizza delivery. It’s like, he probably wants a pizza and he wants it local and he wants this. He has to guess a lot of that stuff, and it’s learning it.

So all they’re trying to do is make their system smarter and smarter and smarter, and that’s why we have to get back to basics of, well, how do you deliver to your customers? We’re not gonna trick people. We’re not gonna trick people. A tricked customer is not a great customer. Once they figure out they’ve been tricked, manipulated in some way, they’re gonna get ticked off, they’re gonna whatever.

It’s the same thing with if if you’re trying to trick them basically through Google. That’s not gonna it’s not gonna work. Right.

Peter: When people over that way. So it sounds like you’re saying a, avoid companies that overpromise, b, you know, avoid companies that are talking about some silver bullet technique to skyrocket you to the top of the search rankings. C, it sounds like you’re saying focus on companies that are really good, that are disciplined, that are going to do the right things over and over and over and over again, so over time, Google will see that this website is the one that they should be focusing on. One of the last questions I have for you is how long does it take for me to see results?

Paul: Well, the answer is it depends. We’ve seen people who were ranking, you know, down in the teens, but because their competitors were weak and had not done that much SEO and

Peter: So when you say the teens, tell tell me what you mean

Paul: They’re by very key search phrase that they really, really wanted to rank for. They were ranking like 14 or 15 in Google. So it’s respectable, but this is their whole business is built around is this particular phrase and this particular service offering. So they really want to be in the top 10, top five, etcetera. So then they come and they say, well can get us there?

And you know, what’s it going take? How long is it going to take? We explained how, we just have explained together what it takes, consistency and time and all those things. But how long are we talking about? For this particular person because we went through and looked at their competitors above them and they weren’t particularly strong.

None of them were spending very much money on SEO or at least it didn’t appear to be. None of them had done a lot of their homework. They were really ranking up there mainly because they had the name of the city in their business name and things like that. So when this client started actively optimizing their website, all that kind of stuff, within a month they were in the top 10, within a couple months they were in the top five, three months I think. So you can move when the especially when the competitors are not all that strong.

You know, if the competitors are ahead of you are mega companies spending mega bucks, you know, the sledding gets a lot rougher. So it’s difficult to say, but also you’re not gonna go anywhere unless you try, unless you do something. And, you know, being buried at number 27, you know, and for plumbing companies in, you know, Seattle is not gonna get you with the what you need. You need to get moving

Peter: Right. Higher. So so if I’m if I’m gonna work with another company then to help me with my SEO, you gotta be willing to invest a certain amount of time.

Paul: Yeah. I would say I I I tell people, ideally, give it a year. Within six months, you’ll see stuff happening for sure. But will you be where you wanna be? No.

But you’ll be you’ll be on the right path, the right trajectory. But then by a year, you should be feeling much, much better about it. And the thing that we noticed and the reason why we emphasize this is, and this is not a we talked about ads and SEO, it’s not a binary decision. Like, oh, do ads so I don’t need SEO or do SEO so I don’t need ads. It’s not at all that.

They can kind of feed into each other. So a lot of companies will say they put out a new product, they need to run ads at first because the SEO isn’t going to rank for a little while because Google always lags behind in kind of discovering pages and they rise in the rankings, etcetera. But they just launched the product, they don’t have time to wait. So they need to be advertising. They need to be pushing that out.

Or they have a lot of competitors, they need to be pushing their site through advertising while their SEO builds and kind of percolates a lot. We do know that usually, and I know this is true for a lot of our clients, that the organic search traffic is more valuable traffic and the fact that they found the, rather than going through an ad, they found them through their own queries, their own intent that they were looking for. And so they’re more likely to fill out a form or call the business or schedule an appointment and those kinds of things. So that’s the traffic you eventually want to build into. That’s so and ads can plug holes.

They can help you overcome a stubborn competitor. They can do things like that. But the organic search traffic in the long run, year, two years, more down the line, that’s the traffic that’s gonna build, like, this sustaining kind of a website that’s gonna keep drag and then it pulls in more people, and then it pulls in more people and more customers and more conversions. That’s what we’re hoping for.

Peter: Excellent. So I’m guessing the first step would be, if you wanna work with somebody on your SEO, would be to have them do a an audit of some sort of where you’re at, kinda set the baseline. And I know that’s a service you provide as well. Is there anything else that, you know, you would wanna look at in terms of sort of getting started?

Paul: I think the audit is the key. I mean, you you need to know where you’re at. You need to know what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. As part of the audit that we provide, we also look at your competitors. So, you know, you’re here’s this this guy, this, you know, this this gal, she’s pesky thing, this business that I can’t seem to rank above.

We’ll take a look at them and see what their strengths and weaknesses are as well to try and figure out a reasonable path to success for you. Some of that is technical stuff. Are all the little right data files in the right places that Google’s looking for and the right code inside the coding of your web page is done correctly so that Google can read your page. All that stuff is all in part of the audit. But also, we’ll look at key phrases and where do you already rank for those and where do we think we see paths to improvements for those.

So the audit the audit is really the is where you have to start. Because otherwise, if if somebody just came to me and said, want you to do SEO for my business tomorrow, I would still have to do the audit because I have to know where it’s at. And I have to also, as part of that, to discover from the client, what part of your business, what what aspects of your business are you really wanting to emphasize? You know, you provide six different services or three of them are the real money makers. You really wanna go after those three.

And the other three, those are nice to have, but you know, etcetera. That’s all insight from your business that I wouldn’t have unless I asked you questions and we went through a process to do that. So that’s another part of it as well. Want to make sure that nobody wants to rank just for the sake of ranking. We want to rank and improve what we’re doing so that you convert more, so that your business is more successful, and you can do the things that you wanna do with your business.

You and it could be everything you want it to be. That’s what I mean, my favorite part of doing this is not just looking at the numbers and watching the numbers go up and just to be able to say, look, we got this many in the top 10 or whatever. It’s to say, look, not only that, but they had this much more traffic. They had this much more sales attributable to the website, etcetera. That’s the biggest win for us.

We want you to your business to succeed.

Peter: Awesome. So is there anything else? Let’s say somebody wants to, learn more. I guess the first thing to do is, go to the bizmarketing.com website. We have a free consultation available.

Just sign up for that. You know, we’ll talk to you, find out kinda what you’re trying to do, what your expectations are, what your budget is, and all that, and then kinda go from there. Is there anything else you’d like to add to that?

Paul: No. I think that’s that’s great because I think the way this is gonna work is is if people through relationships. So, you know, if if people want to businesses want to, you know, go out the next step, it’s to start a conversation. It’s not just to click and fill out form, and then we’ll send you some sort of automated thing. It’s to have a conversation.

And, I think that’s the next key step for anybody that’s wanting to do this.

Peter: Well, Paul, I really appreciate having you with us today on the podcast. And Yeah. So I’m sure we’ll have you again sometime, hopefully

Paul: forward to it. Anytime. Anytime, man. It’s a lot of fun.

Peter: Thanks for listening to this episode of Biz and Life Done Well with Peter Wilson. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and most of the other popular podcast platforms. Please tell your friends about us and leave us a review so even more people will find out about us. Thanks again. We’ll see you soon.