117: Supercharging Contractor Recruitment And Retention with Paul Sanneman

Title: Supercharging Contractor Recruitment And Retention with Paul Sanneman

Guest: Paul Sanneman

Peter: My guest is Paul Sanneman. He’s the founder of Contractor Staffing Source, a business that does, staffing for contractors. How did you get started with, Contractor Staffing Source?

Paul: I’ve been a coach for forty five, seventy years. May’s been all day. Right? I literally worked with a couple thousand contractors. In my career.

And about four or five years ago, the problem was I I could get people from 2 to 20,000,000, did it bunch of times, hundreds, but they couldn’t find employees. And so what would happen I started with the, say, remodeling company or contractor, and we started growing the company. You go, look at it. I don’t think we’re a business. I can’t find the people that do the work they’ve already done.

I said, let’s fix that. So my first idea was I did some research and found the best best applicant tracking software, the best assessments, best practices for how to do HR and recruiting. I gave it to my contractors, and I totally screwed it. No time for time management. Right?

So I said, fine. You’re not gonna do this. So I hired a guy in my garage and said, okay. I just want you to use all this stuff. You’re on a monthly fee for my coaching plans.

Right? That was my original intent. And then it has grown since then. I where we are today is we run three to 400 job ads a day. Last week, we hired 25 people.

We’re in The US and Canada. We just served in Australia. We have 35, 40 people on the team. And the good news, the last 2,000 people we’ve hired, 95% of them stayed longer than a year.

Peter: Wow. Position wise, just so you say contractors. What’s the what do they do? What’s the average size?

Paul: We have we currently have about 300 clients, give or take. So about a third of those are service businesses, like plumbers, electricians, roofers, HVAC guys, I think. K. And then we have about a third of those are world remodelers, and about a third of those are builders. Most of them are small.

They’re between a million and 10,000,000. Okay. Some of them are 50,000,000. Sounds like our clients. Yeah.

Most of them are small. And the thing is they don’t have the time to do it right. And so they end up putting it out in Indeed, and I can get over some practices that they do, and they just don’t work. That’s why the turnover is so high in in construction is they don’t know what they’re doing.

Peter: Got it. So you’re what are you hiring or staffing? All positions? All positions.

Paul: As long as in construction. And we got high we hire laborers, any kind of plumbers, electricians, carpenters. We hire a lot of project managers, office administrators, bookkeepers, selection coordinators. As long as it’s in the construction industry, we’ll find them. And as long as they’re in The US and Canada or Australia, we’re good.

Peter: Wow. This sounds amazing. I a lot of folks that listen to this podcast are service businesses, home service contractors. We do have a couple remodeling clients as well. And, yeah, I know that they struggle a lot.

Are you seeing what are the trends you’re seeing or detecting these days with respect to applicants? What are you seeing that’s most effective for attracting I the right

Paul: would say it’s like anything else. There’s a process that’s proven process, and if you do it, it will work. Peter, how do you get healthier? You exercise regularly, eat right, have a good attitude. It’s not that hard to figure out.

Getting people to do it, that’s a challenge. So it’s the same thing in recruiting. I’ve figured out how to find quality people for any industry and do it in a pretty short time, but you have to follow these certain procedures. What I’d like to do, Peter, is go over what I think gets in the way of your listeners actually pulling it off.

Peter: I’m I’m sure that they would love to hear it, so would I. Yeah. I’d love to hear

Paul: To me, these are what most contractors, like, well, limiting beliefs you can call hiring us, but there’s several of them. The first one is only recruit when you need somebody.

Peter: Of course. I can’t afford them otherwise.

Paul: The problem is most people in this industry have a project oriented brain. So so they look at everything has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And in hiring, it’s the same thing. And they take that mentality, and they project it onto hiring. And it doesn’t work that way.

It’s like marketing. Right? There’s two things that you never stop, which is marketing and hiring. Yeah. Because you have great people and you have great clients.

This is a great industry. But if your clients suck and you can’t find decent people, it’s horrible. And most people in this industry don’t know either how to find all the clients they’re looking for and so take what they shouldn’t have them, or they’re not gonna find all the good employees so they get the world’s worst employee when it was bad not bad enough to fire or good enough to keep. And they’re terrible. And I would ask anybody who’s listening to this podcast, anybody you have right now who you wouldn’t rehire, I would buy.

Right. And why don’t you? Because you haven’t got anybody taking place. Why don’t you? So the answer to that belief is always be recruiting, never stop.

I have that problem. I have 300 clients, and then never willing people leaving people leave us, Peter, is to go, oh, I found my project manager. I found my carpenter. I’m we’re good. I go,

Peter: I’m good. Yeah.

Paul: Stunned. So I literally charge half price if I’ll do it for a year because I had to put some financial incentives because it’s just stuck in their brain. They go, look at it. I got the guy and done. You can’t give me any decent sized company that’s successful.

That’s not always looking for people. Don’t care about to pick anybody. They’re always looking for quality people.

Peter: One thing that I also have realized is that with respect to marketing, and it applies to what you do as well, the act of doing marketing like a business owner, there’s different types. And one of the types that we run into a lot is dabblers. They dabble. Oh, I got this. And it sounds as, oh, I need something, so I’m gonna go do it.

I’m not very good at it, but I’m gonna go do it because I know how to do it. Like, I know how to create an ad in Indeed. You don’t really know how to recruit if

Paul: you know how to create an ad in Indeed. It’s like, the second myth is employees are expensive. I’ve heard that a bunch of times. Right? That’s a myth.

You can’t make money without employees in this instance.

Peter: Absolutely. And

Paul: so the more employees you have, the more money you make. And people don’t get that. They go, oh, I can’t afford that guy. He’s worth picking up a $100, a 100,000 a year. If you don’t, can’t make money without people.

So employees are not expensive at the investment you’re gonna make. That’s the second. Third myth. We can do this ourselves. How hard is it?

Peter: Exactly. Yep.

Paul: I put an ad in, Dee. I see who shows up, and we’re good. Why do Yeah.

Peter: Why? They don’t do

Paul: their own plumbing. They don’t fix their own car. They don’t do their own accounting. Why do they think they magically can figure out how hire somebody? It’s a very sophisticated, complex process, and somehow people think they got it figured out, and they don’t.

So don’t try to do it yourself. Hire somebody who knows what they’re doing and how to do it, and you’re way better off. So it’s a myth and think you can do it yourself. The next one is recruit them the construction industry. Oh, they have to have construction experience.

I’ll give you an example. Let’s look at the selections coordinator. Right? Say I’m looking for selection coordinator, and I’m a remodeling company, or I want a marketing person. You say, unless they have experience in this industry, it doesn’t count.

I’d have hired a bunch of wedding planners. Kill them. Think about a wedding planner. Right? You got a bunch of semi reliable people, the band, the carer, the venue, all these people.

They all have to be at the right place at the right time, and they gotta make the client, I. E, the bright, all those people very happy. It’s gotta look good, sound good, and feel good. It’s gotta make sense. Sounds like a remodel to me, right, or any kind

Peter: of problem. Exactly.

Paul: Yeah. So somebody that has those talents can easily do can work in construction because they can just transfer those talents to something else. The good news is hospitality doesn’t pay well. Right. So you get very intercepted.

So I have a lot of winning planners that just kill them, even off Spanish and stuff. The next one, myth. Hire fast, fire slow. Big mistake. Now why did you hire fast?

Because you don’t hire until after you need somebody. Right? Right. You know what? Wait.

I need somebody in six months. Let’s start now. You go, let’s wait till that gate we get that project. Let’s wait till we get the job. Let’s wait till we actually need this person.

Oh my god. We just landed that new house. We just landed we just our marketing just ticked off. We got a bunch of people. We got all these appointments we can’t make.

Let’s hire ourselves, die, whatever. It’s too late. So they hire fast, which means they hire somebody who’s hit and the wrong person, probably, in most cases. Yep. And then what’s even worse than hiring fast is firing slow.

Because you can get people that will kill an organization. They hire some guy. He only lies occasionally. He only steps out. And what happens is it kills your corporate culture.

You’ve spent years developing a corporate culture to honesty, integrity, all that kind of stuff. You hire a guide or a woman who doesn’t meet that culture, and it just kills your culture. And what happens is the good people will be. Yeah. They go, look.

I can’t work with this guy. He just lies. I’m not gonna work with him. And so it kills your culture. So firing slow is terrible.

So you should and I again, anybody that you wouldn’t rehire if you started a company over, you should fire it. The reality is you hire slow. Take your time. That means you gotta be recruiting all the time. You can’t, like, just wait to need the guy.

The second one is fire fast. The minute a person you you I should just fire. Don’t think about it. I’ve worked as a coach in many companies. We have the same John Doe conversation for four years.

John, they’re doing great. John, they’re doing great. And just get rid of John, man. He’s messing up your organization, but people don’t wanna take the emotional hit or pain to do that. And the last one is recruiting is like a project that they exercise in the person.

I need a project manager, a pilot project manager. I’m done. I talked to a guy this morning. You have 40 employees that go, we can return rolling to a year. We’re good.

And normally, what I can do that show them the difference is let’s say you’re a remodeling contractor or a boat builder or something. And somebody wants to quit one of your competitors for a very good reason. They wanna come to work with you, they bring all the systems, process, clients, and subcontractors with them. You’re not gonna hire that guy? Come on.

But if you’re not looking, you’re not gonna find her. So b, those beliefs or myths really get in the way of most people in this industry doing their job, and it’s hard to change.

Peter: Got it. If I wanted to work with you, what is your process for

Paul: Well, I’ll tell you the I’m gonna I’ll show you how to bake a cake and give a recipe. If you wanna hire a chef, it’s fine, or we we can do it for you. Do yourself. Okay. Great.

I’m gonna explain to you of what we need to do, and then I’ll show you how to do it with AI and do it really quick. Alright?

Peter: Alright.

Paul: So the first is I’m gonna say you need to come up with some good preemployment assessments. There’s a bunch out there.

Peter: Some good what? Could you repeat that?

Paul: A preemployment assessment. Okay. I mean, I have went all the way to your mom and take me about fifty years, different assessments we use. And that’s why 95% of the people we hire stick because we do a really we’ve gone through research and found out what does this person need to know? Who do they need to be?

What is their personality? Who’s their integrity? We test everything, their personality, their integrity, their attention to detail. I know all about a person in front of me talking.

Peter: How how do you do that?

Paul: It’s there’s lots of assessments out there. There’s this assessments and various profiles. You can do some research on the Internet. Find some assessments that you have faith in. One way to do it, Peter, is take the assessment yourself.

Give your assessment to a couple of your guys. Establish some kind of psychological criteria for the kind of people you want in your company. Mhmm. Then test what happens to this. It’s not her.

And those assessments may cost you $200 apiece, but they’re worth it. I meet for what we do, but it’s worth it not to hire the right guy. So go and find some assessments that are gonna clearly predict whether this person’s gonna succeed or not in your company. Mhmm. Do research and find those out.

Next, the art of a job ad. This is an ad. It is not a description. It is a marketing. Right?

You’ve gotta get somebody to click on the thing. Right? Just and everybody that you wanna hire has already got a job. Guaranteed. So you gotta get them to quit their job and come to work for you.

That’s the process. Now how do you get somebody to quit their job? By saying we need a project manager. We are a quality company. Come work for us.

Blah blah. It’s just boring. Right? Yeah. Because it’s like, is your job suck?

You hate going to work. You need to figure it’s like an ad. Right? You’re a marketing guy. You’ve got to to somebody’s emotional button so they’re gonna press on that thing and apply.

So you’ve got to write a great job. It can’t just be a job description.

Peter: So with respect to that, when you’re talking about when I think about marketing, I think about your unique selling proposition as a company when you’re, you know, dealing with prospects. Right? You’re basically dealing with prospects here.

Paul: So You’re the sales rep. Right?

Peter: Yeah. So you want to I I would venture to say that you want to have unique selling propositions that you highlight that are most likely also related to why customers would work with you.

Paul: Similar. In our company, we have zero internal. Wow. Because we’re really picky about who we pick. We’re very slow.

We have people all over the world, and they just don’t ever leave because we but we have to go through 300, 400 people to find the right person.

Peter: Right.

Paul: Yeah. That’s an average. The last 2,000 people we hired, we went through 500,000 to find. Wow. You gotta kiss a lot of frogs, man.

Make sure it’s a great job, man. I mean, it attracts the kind of person you want. And you can run it by your employees, something that they would go for. Love your job or get tired of commuting or whatever. Figure out.

Semi nay son proposition.

Peter: One one thing we do with customers for some of the business we work with, we say, we go interview the customers and say, why did

Paul: you buy from these guys? In very close, why did you come work for us? Exactly. You wanna find out, and you wanna make that it’s an emotional thing again. And when you buy a drill, you want a hole.

You don’t want a drill. Right? And I remember I’m gonna die to that light up to degenerate some things that probably are broken, but I’m an old guy. And there was an ad when the last mash boinked at the rumor mash. Of course.

Yeah. Okay. So the last mash was an incredibly extensive commercial. It was like 3 or $4,000,000. It was I believe it was Yamaha.

I think so. And what they have this was the app. Right? There was a sleazy bar out in the middle of nowhere and never very distinctly. There was a motorcycle, I think it was yellow, in front of this boy.

And this guy is standing in front of his motorcycle with four of his friends. Right? This super hot chick comes out of the bar. They’re all frowning and smiling. Right?

He looks at her. She looks at him. They get on the bike and ride off. Now what are they telling you? Are they saying how many sees a motorcycle’s got?

Are they saying how fast it goes? Uh-uh. A bunch of descriptions about the technical aspects of Yamaha? No. Say buy the bike and get the girl.

Right? Yep. So, again, you’re feeling emotionally that and this ad’s gotta do the same thing. It’s gotta peep people’s emotions. I’m not gonna watch it.

Right? Yep. So right. Then next, where do you post the app? Everywhere.

When we post an ad, it goes on a 100 job boards, post LinkedIn, mostly, but we put it everywhere it can possibly go. That’s where you just one log of fact, I think, Indeed just changed their policy list this month, and you can’t post a job ad for free anymore. You have to pay for it unless you’re a company like ours. Just it’s gotta go everywhere, and ChatGPT can help you come up with where to put it. Right?

K. This is the most key thing, and it’s the hardest to do. Respond in real time. Now if you have a lead come in and you’re a roofer, how long do you have to get back to that person or a plumber or anybody? What’s your response to?

Peter: It’s gotta be immediate. Yeah. You’ve gotta get back

Paul: to people in real time. No. We get back to 3,000 applicants a week in real time. How do you do that? A lot of AI and a lot of people.

A lot of they speak Spanish. They speak whatever they need to do. That we have to go through 300 people to find one person on the average. That’s our no. Right?

And we get back to all those people real time.

Peter: Wow.

Paul: So that’s the hardest part. Because you put an ad in for a project manager, a carpenter, whatever, and you get in bunch of phone calls, you call it going a week later. It’s way too late. Oh, yeah. So that’s something I think we can do, and it’s really hard for the average guy to do is to get back to all the applicants in real time, knowing that you’re gonna have to go through 300 applicants in a day.

Literally, we’re back in real time. Two minutes we’re back to the day. Most people are back in it’s way too late. Right? Then once you get back to people in real time, which is the hardest part, you go through selection process and screen the candidates.

Then the assessments come in, video interviews come in, background. We do all this stuff. Do amazing amount of assessments, then we do videos, interview, like, videos, again, see what they’re doing, ask different questions for each person. So we do video interviews. We do reference checks, background checks.

They’re really thorough before we hire the guy, and that’s why 9% of them worked out. If you look at your average contractor, they don’t do anything. The ad sucks. They get back to them literally in three or four days if they’re lucky. They place the ad in Indeed, and they’re done.

They have no assessment interview process. They kept them come in, and they look at them and maybe a new background check, and they hire them. That’s why 50% of bill were down. So it’s not that they’re not people available. It’s just I can’t find any clients.

Why? Because you’re marketing. Right? They’re out there. You just gotta know what you’re doing.

So then once you hire the guy, then there’s the onboarding process. Right?

Peter: Mhmm.

Paul: You work with key performance indicators. You gotta have those done right. You gotta document it. You gotta set expectations. You have deployment reviews.

You gotta let them architect their own success. You have to work on making this a place the person wants to be. You cannot just give them a job and say, hey. Go out to your job and have fun.

Peter: You wanna keep your job? Keep doing it.

Paul: The reason the industry has a really hard time finding people is because they’re really down. It’s not that the people aren’t there. I’ll I’ll use this sort of an analogy in a way. You look at it’s in retail, but you get the idea. Let’s say everybody in town saying nobody wants to work here, and the drugstore says I can’t find anybody.

Supermarket sends again. And it’s this small town USA, and nobody can find me. They’re just they’re they’re not there, and we look wherever, and people are lazy, and the kids don’t wanna work and blah blah blah. Okay? Somebody builds a Walmart a mile and a half out of 10.

They hire 400 people in one month. Yeah. Where have they gone from? Right? Good point.

They got a process. Yep. And so it’s the process that’s the problem, not that there aren’t people out there. We all we hardly ever fail. The only reason we ever fail in finding somebody is, one, the person’s not the person you work for, and they don’t offer a fair compensation.

Or they can be in the middle of I’m in the middle of a mountain of the market, so I’m looking at a project manager. I underpay the guy, there’s nobody there. But if they’re in a market that has people and they offer a fair wage, we can always

Peter: Do you help figure out some of that too, like the fair wage or compensation?

Paul: Fair wage and all that kind of stuff. Okay. Now I can show you how you can use AI to do this stuff if you’re interested.

Peter: I would love to see

Paul: that. Okay. So I’m gonna I’m gonna this is scary for me, but I’m gonna do it in real time. Right? So I gotta go to chat GBT.

Peter: Okay. And feel free to share your screen, and I will capture the video portion of this. Most of it’s gonna be in audio, but I will have a accompanying video to go with this.

Paul: Okay. So now in real time, Peter, give me some position that you might be looking for. Where is it located? The kind of company. Just somebody might know.

You can use a b c company. You have to be specific. You can keep it anonymous. But tell me somewhere, some company, and some junk.

Peter: Got it. Okay. I’ve got a HVAC contractor in Seattle that is looking for a technician.

Paul: Okay. So here we go. You go like this.

Peter: So we have a screen, and you’re using chat GPT for I

Paul: can’t because I can’t type. I’m just gonna talk in. Okay.

Peter: Yeah. That’s great.

Paul: Okay. And what’s the volume of the of the contractor?

Peter: Volume, you mean the rep

Paul: Dollar amount. I’m sorry? Dollar amount. How many how what’s his annual production? How many employees does he have?

Peter: They’ve got so they’ve got about 20 employees, so it’s on the smaller side, and they’re doing about $34,000,000 a year. Okay.

Paul: I have an HVAC company and yep. I do about $3,000,000 a year, and I have 20 employees. The name of my company is ABC Age Fair. You are an employment expert and HR really well. I want you to first write a job description for this position.

It’s an HVAC technician. So write a job description, then write a job ad that will attract somebody to quit their job and come work for me. Then once you write the job ad, write where I should put the job ad, give me all the places it should be placed, develop APIs for the position, give me three behavioral KPIs and three performance KPIs, and then develop two month onboarding plan for this position. Develop a two month onboarding plan for this position. Here we go.

See what I have no clue how it’s gonna work out. The job title, there’s the job title, HVAC technician, Seattle, Washington, ABC, HVAC. It says, here’s the job overview. Gave the job overview. Taylor Washington experience.

Gave the job overview, gives you key responsibilities, install and maintain HVAC, diagnose and total shape or form, regular preventative maintenance, ensure competence, gives you all the key responsibilities, gives you the qualifications, high school diploma, may have been three years, validly strong knowledge of HVAC, like an outline of the qualifications, talked about the physical environment ability, move physical ability on spaces, gives you the benefit, competitive health, blah blah blah. There you go. Wow.

Peter: That’s amazing. How

Paul: hard was that? That’s obviously,

Peter: you have to polish it a little bit.

Paul: Gotta polish it a bit. Think how much time is that, Sage. Yeah. And so just not using AI is just not smart. And it works for anything.

You can polish it and change it. But as far as getting the basics down, it it’s never been easier than it is now.

Peter: That’s some yeah. And, yeah, like I said, obviously, you wanna check it fact check it. But but

Paul: You can also say if you don’t like something, you go, I’ll do this.

Peter: Oh, yeah. Tell it to improve or retry or use a different tone.

Paul: Please give me 10 more places to put the job, Eric. I really need to find this guy. And can you make it a more interesting job, man? Because I think it’s boring. See what it says.

Here we go. In real time. Time winning.

Peter: Thinking. Okay. Here we go.

Paul: Join the HVAC elite, HVAC in Seattle. Competitive pay. So it says join HVAC. Let’s see. Career growth, exciting cutting edge tool, competitive vehicle, amazing team.

We’re looking for 10 additional ways to post a job. HVAC jobs, school boards, Nextdoor, RIDDIT, Angie Lee, Seattle Times, classified, Workforce Washington, Facebook, HVAC groups, and the Skilled Trades USA, and JELCA.

Peter: So it gave very specific examples to the local area. Nice.

Paul: And then you can say something like, I’ll go for it says Facebook page backwards. Right? And I would say, what should I write in the Facebook page backwards? And it’ll give me a very specific of what do you need to do to manage. This is a great and this is something that everybody has access to for free.

And I go for the $20 a month to get the professional version of the iGHT. But it’s gonna save people a ton of time. Now the downside of doing this is one, you won’t respond in real time. You don’t have time to do that. You all place it.

That’s why we do what we do. Because even though AI helps with all this, you just can’t get employers to do it.

Peter: We run into a lot of that as well just with marketing. You can use AI to do certain tasks, but you still have to know the prompts. You’ve obviously provided the prompts here today. Very helpful.

Paul: It is. It’s a tool. And I would say if you’re gonna do it yourself, use AI and follow all those best practices that we just laid out. But if you’re any size company, I can do five people for you, five people positions for $1,500 a month, and you cannot do that. It’s just Wow.

Because we use a lot of offshore. You just can’t do it. I can give you four people on your team, an entire recruiting department, HR, and I could do it for 50 to about a $100 a month. You can’t even come close.

Peter: So who is the ideal client size wise for you? I know you mentioned some numbers earlier. But what

Paul: I would say probably anybody under 20,000,000. What happens in about 20,000,000 is we get HR. Yep. They have their political turf. Unless we hire the HR person, it’s really to get past them because we do everything they do for a fraction of the cost.

Right? A good HR person is going cost you $80,000 a year, and we do everything for $17 all in. So we aren’t generally, if they are big enough to have their own HR person, the HR person’s able to keep us out. But they’re now big enough here of our HR. I think we make an ideal fractional HR team.

Peter: Got it. So if you’ve got somebody in your company that’s responsible for hiring, but it’s not their

Paul: main job. Owner, sometimes the office manager. Yep. And what happens is it’s somebody’s job. Put an ad in Indeed, write it up, and screen the people for me, and send anybody who’s gonna make an appointment.

That’s typical in Slocum. Mhmm. And the problem is it just doesn’t work very well.

Peter: Yeah. We see the exact same thing with marketing. It’s usually, it’s an add on to somebody else’s job that’s already full. Right.

Paul: But they don’t know how to do it. So No. No. It is tell me it’s like yours it’s way easier and cheaper to outsource some of this stuff than it used to be. Yeah.

And so we’re your ideal fractional and outsourced HR department.

Peter: That’s pretty impressive, Paul. If people wanna learn more about your company, talk to you

Paul: Well, they can go to the which is contractorstaffingsource..dot, and they can make an appointment with me. I’ll be happy to talk to them. And I’ll for free, I’ll spend an hour with them, tell them everything I know of how to do it themselves. I’ll give them all specifics. I’ll literally run through some job ads with them, that kind of thing, and show them hazy.

I’ll literally here’s a recipe. Here’s a good book. Have fun. Or if they wanna do with us, I’ll give them, like, if they respond to this podcast, I’ll do I’ll do some assessments for free. I’ll do some of his profiles for free.

I’ll also give $500 off of monthly to encourage people to do stuff. But we’re a great resource. You should at least talk to us.

Peter: The fact that you specialize in contractors, home service contractors, and remodeling, and we’ve got a lot of clients that are in that field. And I know they need a lot of help, And you’ve picked a good niche to focus on. So that’s very helpful. I really appreciated the time. So we’ll cut out the video part of the AI, and I’ll show that, and then also a little bit of the tool you showed us afterwards.

So that’ll be available as a video separate from this podcast. We’ll post it on our YouTube channel, and we’ll embed it in the episode page for this podcast episode as well.

Paul: Hope this was informative.

Peter: Oh, extremely informative, Paul. Thank you so much. And I’m sure you’re gonna be hearing from some of our listeners here real soon. Thanks for listening to this episode of Biz and Life Done Well with Peter Wilson. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and most of the other popular podcast platforms.

Please tell your friends about us and leave us a review so even more people will find out about us. Thanks again. We’ll see you soon.