Title: Becoming A Self-Reliant Leader with Author Jan Rutherford
Guest: Jan Rutherford
Jan: Part of that’s required, Peter, is you’re gonna have to sacrifice. If you’re gonna prepare, you gotta get up earlier, or you’ve gotta spend time reading and prepping. You have to sacrifice more than the people that are not in a leadership role. And if you’re not prepared to do that, then don’t raise your hand.
Peter: Welcome to the Biz and Life Done Well podcast, where we explore what it means and what it takes to do business and life well. I’m your host, Peter Wilson. If you’re like me, you’re intrigued by stories of common people who have achieved uncommon success in business and life. Join me as I interview fascinating people about how they got started, their successes and failures, their habits and routines, and what inspires them. Today, my guest is Jan Rutherford.
He is an executive coach, entrepreneur, podcast host, expedition leader and a former CEO, and a green beret as well. Today, we are going to be talking about his book titled becoming a self reliant leader, how grit and discipline duty forge indomitable teams. When is the book coming out, Jan?
Jan: August 20, a week from today.
Peter: Great. Well, I can’t wait to dig into this. But just a little bit about your background. You have been maybe your career started in the military. Is that true?
Jan: Yeah. As a 17 year old, and I did my nine years before my 20 birthday. And I thought when I got into the business world as a 26 year old, I thought I was way behind. That’s how I felt that I was way behind. But, boy, it was a great beginning.
I really created the framework for the rest of my life. Little did I know at the time. I was so young, so naive, but was luckily exposed to some phenomenal leaders right off the bat as a teenager. It really changed my life, and it’s probably one of the reasons I believe in the American dream that you can come from nothing and and make something. And I look at the basic training photo that was taken in 1979 at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and I look at that platoon, and it was so diverse.
Black, white, Hispanic, and women. And when I reflect back, I what I remember, all of us were 17, 18 years old, and we were all exactly the same. We were poor, and we were soldiers. But none of us I don’t remember seeing color, race, gender, sexual preference. I don’t remember seeing anything but soldiers that were in civilian people that were trying to make a better life for themselves.
And when this was in a period where there was no GI bill, there was a GI bill during Vietnam. It was suspended, so there wasn’t even a GI bill. There’s a little bit of a savings incentive account for college, but many of us thought this is our ticket.
Peter: Wow.
Jan: Not in total.
Peter: Quite a commitment at that age. I had a what I consider to be my boot camp experience at that age, which was nothing like what you’re talking about where I worked in Alaska on fishing boats for five summers.
Jan: That’s tough work.
Peter: And, well, little secret. In the summer, it’s kinda like summer camp. It’s long hours and things like that, but nothing like the commitment that you put into that. But it it seems like there’s this this formative experience that some of us have the opportunity to have. We don’t even know it at the time.
Yeah. And it’s a great opportunity. Of course, it’s one thing to have the opportunity. It’s something to make the most of the opportunity. It sounds like you’ve made the most of that opportunity as well.
Jan: Yep. I when, again, here hits and misses. I mean, there were high points and low points as there is in any career. Yeah. When I got out, the first job I had was as a pharmaceutical salesperson in California.
And, boy, I thought I threw my life away. I went from being saluted. I was an officer at that point, and then I was groveling to get thirty seconds with a cardiologist. And I really thought, what the heck did I do to my life? But now I look back, I mean, that was another one of the best things I ever did was get that sales experience and to really understand business from a customer’s perspective.
And today, what I hear from clients over and over is I wish I could find somebody that could close deals. I mean, it finding people that can actually close business these days is as rare as a unicorn. And I I really attribute my success as an entrepreneur to those years I spent pounding the pavement, literally wearing out shoe leather. Mhmm. Literally having a hole in my shoes.
Peter: Mhmm. Embracing the suck.
Jan: Exactly. And but I remember thinking, I’m paying my dues. I’m paying my dues. But
Peter: Yeah. I mean,
Jan: at the time, it felt like, am I am I gonna ever pay my dues? Am I ever gonna get to the the cool parts of the of a career?
Peter: The main reason we’re here today is to talk about your new book, becoming a self reliant leader. I got a pre copy of it. I was able to review an amazing book. I wanna start at the title, this idea of being a self reliant leader. Yeah.
I’d like to have you define self reliant leader.
Jan: I’ll tell you the origin story. And, again, it kinda goes back to the army. Being an 18 year old in special forces training to become a green beret, we were on patrols. It was the dead of winter. We’re exhausted, starving, freezing, and you’re following somebody that’s in charge because they’re being graded as a leader.
And at any moment, they can put you in charge. It could be at three in the morning. All of sudden, hey. The leader’s dead. You’re in charge.
Peter: Okay.
Jan: And so in order to get people to follow you, you’ve gotta be a good follower. If you’re a jerk, when it comes your turn to lead, nobody’s gonna do it, and you’re gonna get a bad score. You’re gonna fail. And, what I remember most is when it was my turn to go, I remember thinking, I can’t lead these people if I’m not squared away. And by squared away, I mean, I’m fit.
I’m mentally sharp. I’ve got all this stuff. I know what I’m doing Because this leadership is not about you. You’ve gotta take care of your people. And so the whole idea of being a self reliant leader is you’ve gotta lead yourself.
You’ve gotta take ownership because then you’ve gotta create a shared ownership and a shared sense of duty with the team, and then you’ve gotta really focus everyone so there’s alignment when you lead the organization. So it’s not just about you becoming self reliant. It’s that’s it’s a contagion for other people to be self reliant so that everybody can really focus on the mission. It’s not, hey. There’s a weak person over here, and we’ve gotta basically carry them.
Mhmm. And and in the work world, we can’t see that. We’re not on patrol. We’re not climbing a mountain. And especially in a hybrid remote world, how do we know who’s carrying their weight, who’s not?
But, again, you still have to be squared away so that you can take care of other people so you can figure out, are we getting the job accomplished, and how’s everybody feel about that? Hopefully, their people are going above and beyond. And and, again, I I think that’s one of the marks of a leader. If you’ve got retention and you’ve got people that will go above and beyond, you’re probably leading effectively. You’ve got people that are doing the bare minimum, which we read about in the Wall Street Journal every single day.
You’re probably not inspiring people very well.
Peter: One of the things that I found as a leader when I first was in a leadership position, found that I was a reluctant leader.
Jan: Mhmm.
Peter: I achieved a position in an organization that I was cofounding. First, I was a bit of a reluctant leader. I wanted to cofound a company. I didn’t wanna become a leader of people. Right?
So I was very reluctant at the time.
Jan: When when you go in the army, what’s interesting is you’re 17 years old, 18 years old. You’re being trained to be a soldier. But from day one, you’re trained to be a leader. Hey. If the squad leader gets killed, you gotta step up.
And it’s really remarkable that the succession planning starts first day of basic training. In what the all the military academies, which I did not attend, all would say we’re the finest leadership institutions for training leaders there is. And we know in the work world these days, succession planning is terrible. We’re not selecting some of the right leaders to advance. We’re selecting people that are good at their job.
Right. We’re not giving them the tools. And when I had such a great opportunity in a big pharmaceutical company where when you were in the development program to be a manager, a leader, they spent so much time teaching you how to interview, how to select people, and how to coach people, develop them. And that was repetitive. And, honestly, the training I got in the pharmaceutical company was better than the training I got in the military on how to select and develop people.
And it was repetitive. It was creative, but there was a lot of role plays. And everyone hates role plays. Everybody hates them, but there is no substitute. There there just isn’t.
Mhmm. When you’re practicing dealing with people, you can read all the books you want. But if if you don’t have somebody that’s coaching you and and watching you and your practicing skills at the beginning, it’s really hard to to get better at it.
Peter: The book itself, becoming a self reliant leader, has this theme based on what you call crucible expeditions,
Jan: which is
Peter: this kinda outbound adventure. What what inspired these crucible expeditions?
Jan: This is gonna sound crazy, but the first book I wrote, The Littlest Green Beret, I remember thinking about writing that book when I was a teenager. I thought, I’m gonna write a book about all this. And the picture of me getting my beret in front of bronze Bruce, I remember I saw that picture, I’m like, if I ever write a book, that picture’s going on the cover, and it did. But I what I remember so much, so vividly being a Florida boy going to and going through all this training basically in the winter, the first winter I ever went through. And I remember absolutely being cold, wet, tired, and and miserable and hungry.
And but the learning was so accelerated. And when I got out of the military and I was still going to the woods, still doing all the things I did, I thought this is the place to teach leadership. And I thought if I ever achieve what I want to, a leadership development firm, I want a big component of that to be a wilderness expedition. Ten years ago, I created the crucible expedition, and I decided it would be comprised of executives paired with military veterans who are transitioning out. The executives pay, the veterans do not pay.
The executives basically get a digital detox. They get to slow down to speed up and really reflect on what’s important. The military veterans that are transitioning are the ones that really learn a new vocabulary and learn, hey. What’s it gonna take to be successful in a completely different environment? We’ve done 25 of these over the last ten years, probably had 250 people go through.
We’ve done them from Argentina to Alaska. Most of it been in Colorado and Utah. And it’s just such a privilege because what we can do in four days, you know, I don’t think we can do it in a year. I’m meeting once a month for eight hours in a meeting room. I I I just think it’s just amazing what we can do really fast.
Peter: So how many people would typically attend one of these events, the crucible expeditions?
Jan: Usually, it’s the participants, it’s usually, I would say, eight to 16. Mhmm. Probably the sweet spot’s probably about 10. So we got five pairs, five executives, five veterans. We always have professional guides with us
Peter: Yeah.
Jan: That are IFMGA certified. So the highest certification that you can have in the entire world for guiding. So we’re safe. And anytime the ropes come out, the guides are in charge. They’re the risk mitigators.
And that’s been a little tricky thing is to is how you have people that are also leaders, alpha people along and then myself. And then you again, we pick different leaders on different days and not because we want them to learn about how to take people from point a to point b. Right. It’s so that other people can watch them communicate, watch them decide, watch them collaborate. And then at night, that’s what we get to talk about.
We do an after action report or a debrief postmortem. What was supposed to happen? What actually happened? What went well? What didn’t?
What do we need to do differently tomorrow? And that always leads into a topic of leadership and teamwork. Always. And sometimes we have a fire when we have this discussion. Sometimes if we’re in the middle of the desert, we’re we got our hands.
We’re just warming our hands. But we always have a a discussion at night. And a lot of times right on the trail, we’ll have a teachable moment. We’ll say, hey. What just happened here?
This was a decision point. How did we approach this decision? And we’ll really talk about that.
Peter: Got it. So the book is organized in what I would say the order of the phases of the expedition. Right?
Jan: It Correct.
Peter: Seems like it it kind of it’s a great way to organize the book. I do wanna touch on a couple chapters just to to talk about. Some of them really interested me. You already touched on being squared away. I really appreciate that terminology of as a leader taking care of yourself and making sure all your stuff is taken care of.
It seems like sometimes as a leader, we forget that we’ve got to not just wing it. And especially when it’s like, oh, it’s just my team. I’m not gonna phone it in, but maybe a little less prep this time. What you’re talking about with respect to being a leader and square being squared away is a great discipline and really kinda reminds me that I owe it to these people to be squared away.
Jan: Right. Prepared. And and part of that’s required, Peter, is you’re gonna have to sacrifice. If you’re gonna prepare, you gotta get up earlier, or you’ve gotta spend time reading and prepping. You have to sacrifice more than the people that are not in a leadership role.
And if you’re not prepared to do that, then don’t raise your hand. And there’s no way that you can lead a team and work less hours than your team. It it it cannot happen. And there’s such a movement these days to how can I do the least amount of how can I get the job done in the least amount of hours? Right.
And way I actually make more money per hour. I’m more efficient. That’s great if you’re an individual contributor. It might even be a good mentality for an entrepreneur. But if you’re a leader, you cannot think that because that’s transactional thinking.
I’m trading time for money. You you’re privileged and honored to lead people and change their lives. You’ve gotta take that responsibility seriously. If you’re the leader, you’re one of the most important people in that person’s life. You will be talked about at dinner every single night.
Peter: Right. In the chapters that you have here, I’m just gonna read the chapter titles real quick just because I think it’ll give people that are listening just a brief overview of what we’re talking about. So you’ve got selection, which is selecting people, preparation, the first encounter, movement, base camp, fireside chat, who’s who, obstacles, rhythm, tribal connections, and the crux. And then the final chapter, the end is another beginning. And the next chapter that I wanted to talk to you about is this, the idea of the first encounter.
Yeah. And the subtext of that is being authentic and vulnerable. I’m just curious. What role does vulnerability play?
Jan: I’ll give you a story. One of the the best leaders we ever had on the crucible was a woman who was the chief compliance officer at Western Union. She was not an outdoorsy person. In fact, all her gear from REI was brand new. So we get out there, and one of the rules is, hey.
If you feel something’s not safe, some say something. And we get to a point, and she said, if I fall here, I will die. And so there’s a real difference in real risk and perceived risk. Her perceived risk was enormous. The real risk, the chance of her falling were pretty minimal.
I mean, it was a wide trail. If she fell, yes, she might have died. Yes. You know, she would have certainly gotten hurt. But I said, we can change such a route.
We can turn around. But before we do, are you gonna be okay with that? The whole team’s gonna turn around. And she said, absolutely. And and then we talked about, hey.
Before we turn around, what what about all the times you ask people to do things that are scary, but they can’t see it, and maybe you don’t even know it? And I said, I want you to remember that. Anyway, we get down, and I said, how are you feeling about turnaround? Because I thought for sure she was gonna regret it. She’s gonna feel terrible, and she’s like, good.
And what I realized in that moment was her confidence allowed her to be vulnerable. Being vulnerable made her even more confident. And so people that say they don’t wanna be vulnerable to me, in a lot of ways, they have some insecurities. They don’t have the confidence, and it was her superpower. And, literally, anything she was always the last one to speak.
And whenever she spoke, everybody got super quiet. And she led that crucible even though she wasn’t the bravest. She wasn’t the most experienced, but her confidence was off the charts. And in she even risked when I remember somebody saying, I wanna do this, and she said something to the effect like, what? Are you crazy?
Like, she had the confidence to basically call somebody out that she didn’t even know. And to me, I I almost saw this as, like, a self perpetuating machine, that confidence and that vulnerability. And so that’s really what I mean is when we first encounter, everybody’s kinda feeling each other out. Who’s gonna be the first one that’s vulnerable? Who’s gonna be the first one that lets people know who they really are and sort of sets the tone?
And that was her.
Peter: Yeah. That especially when you’ve got a group of sort of execs.
Jan: We we had on that trip, we had a couple men that were from the the most elite unit in the military that some of them had been deployed two dozen times, combat hundreds of times. Yeah. These were the the males, the complete warriors, and they were perfectly fine being led by her.
Peter: Mhmm.
Jan: That to me I mean, that was remarkable. Really remarkable. In fact, as I mentioned, the veterans that attend, most of them are people transitioning out of the military. One of those people was veterans, was hired by this particular woman based on that trip, which is kinda cool.
Peter: Yeah. I like that. The next chapter I wanted to mention, and I I hope you’re okay with me just kinda skipping through the chapters here, but there were just some things that really picked up on chapter four movement, setting direction, pace and tone. And as a leader, I’ve found that keeping my team moving, it’s critical to keep the team moving at a strong pace. There’s just so many distractions and I just find movement to be just one of the most critical things to my running my small marketing organization.
But in that, you talk about movement setting direction, pace, and tone. What is the importance of direction in an expedition setting, and how does that translate into business?
Jan: Well, I’ll give you the example. So I remember one of the guys, twenty fifteen, really strong, young, very confident person. And he said, okay, gang. We’re going to this summit, and let’s go. And I let him go.
And I was with him, and I remember I said, hey, Josh. Turn around. And he turns around, and he goes, oh, crap.
Peter: Nobody behind him.
Jan: Right. Exactly. So the direction was clear. The pace was unreasonable because on a mountain, you can only go as fast as your slowest person. Well, in the work world, the direction can be clear, but, gosh, how in the world do we figure out the pace when you’ve got people all over the world if you’re not talking to them all the time?
In fact, on the expeditions, what’s interesting is the leader could say, hey. We’re gonna stop every forty five minutes and take a break for ten minutes. And whatever that leader communicates to the people every forty five minutes is never enough. Like, how long are we stopping for? Can I pee?
Do I can I get some food? Can I treat my blisters? What’s the weather ahead? How much more elevation? When are we gonna get to camp?
What’s gonna are we gonna be able to build a fire? The and then I say to them, alright. You have one fifteen minute stand up a week. You think that’s enough for people to know what’s going on? And then here’s the other part, the the re what I think is the most important concept of direction, pace, and tone.
So Josh gets them to the top of the mountain. Alright? How did the tone. How do they feel? They’re ragged.
They’re beaten. What if Josh says, this isn’t this is a false summit. We gotta go up higher. The team’s gonna go, the heck with you, and they’ll mutiny. And and that translates to the business world.
Our direction is a number. The pace is quarterly or monthly. We gotta hit a number. The tone is how do you want people to feel? And and because we know the next quarter, you gotta do it all over again.
And are people anxious? Are they going, I hit my number six months into the year. I’m gonna coast. And so I don’t find very many leaders that are intentional about telling them, hey. I’m gonna lead them.
Here’s where we’re going. Here’s the pace. Here’s how I want them to feel along the way. Very few leaders go into meetings saying, hey. This is how I want people to feel.
And if you’re not thinking that way, you’re not really capturing hearts and minds, in my opinion.
Peter: Yeah. It’s interesting you bring that up. We have core values. I I we were just a tiny little company, but early on in our evolution, one of the team members who was kind of the junior member of the team really pushed me to be intentional about my leadership in the organization. One of the things we came up with was our core values for the team.
One of our core values is great team vibe.
Jan: Mhmm.
Peter: It means, are we actually authentically getting along? And it’s not to say that we all have to be exactly on the same page outside of the office or anything like that. But when we’re doing our job, how are we doing it? What is that vibe? And that has really served us well as a team just to state that, make it to keep the cohesiveness of the team and to make us do great things.
Is there anything else in movement that you any other points that you wanna make today?
Jan: In the movement, I, it’s it’s really about intentionality. Again, I I really believe that this leadership thing is really balancing results and relationships. I mean, and, again, the job is to get things done through other people. So we have to influence them, and, hopefully, we have we’re able to inspire them. Again, that tone is just so important.
And I talk to a lot of organizations about their culture and remind them that your culture is oftentimes by default. It is what it is, and it’s not by design. And because people aren’t intentional about, again, how they want people to feel, what it’s like to work here, what it’s like to be a customer for that company. White glove, high touch, whatever it might be. It doesn’t mean you have to be namby pamby with people and cater and bow down to them.
I mean, you can still coach them and coach them hard and try to move them to their highest potential. I mean, people want that. Most people want growth and development and to be challenged. But this relationship and results thing is the art of leadership. It’s never in perfect balance.
And the great leaders are hyper self aware, and they’re constantly adjusting that that that scale so that not too much empathy in relationship and not too much driving people to exhaustion and burn up. Yeah. And we talk in the book a little bit about the whole idea of like, again, the way to say that really succinctly is stretch people without breaking them. And and it’s hard. I mean, if we had the recipe, we would write the the final book on leadership.
But there’s 40,000 books out there, and everybody’s got a different take on how to do it. And I think the key as a leader is you’re constantly learning. You’re staying curious. You’re driven, and you’re reading things that really speak to you and to the nuggets that you can take away and and put into practice. And if you’re early as a leader, the books you read are really formative because you’ll find that the more leadership books you read, the more you realize there are different variations on the same theme.
Mhmm. And, again, my perspective really comes from the expeditions, the crucible of really facing adversity. And I think my TED talk was on when you create your own crucible, you change your narrative. And we can create crucibles for ourselves or crucibles can be thrown in our path. But I kinda go back to Bill George who wrote authentic leadership when he found that great leaders had one thing in common.
They were constantly testing themselves and reframing their life story. And I think that’s what we’ve gotta do. We’ve gotta constantly test ourselves. We gotta face our own hypocrisy because we’re gonna ask people to do things that we don’t do so great or we’ve screwed up or we don’t do consistently. We’ve gotta face our own hypocrisy, and we’ve gotta constantly reframe our story and know that, we don’t have it all figured out.
And we make mistakes, and we lose trust. Or and the hard lesson I learned as a CEO was my intentions did not matter. I had the best of intentions. I was there for the people. I was not there for me, and it did not matter.
All that mattered was my words and my deets, and I was not given grace for my intentions as a CEO. Yeah. And nor should I have been. I mean, it it’s about words and deeds, and that was that was a tough lesson. I did not learn in a from a book or from a mentor.
I learned from screwing up.
Peter: One, just a couple in in closing. I’m I’m curious how you measure the success of the expedition. And kind of related to that, am I gonna be able to get these lessons without actually doing my own crucible? It seems like I’ve I’m really dying to go out and do this. Yeah.
Jan: But That’s the that’s why we wrote the book because we know the crucibles don’t scale. And and that is literally when one of my mentors asked me, why do you wanna write another book? And I said, I wanna help more people. And he goes, haven’t you already helped people? Yep.
I said, I really this doesn’t scale, and I wanna basically put a stake in the ground. Hey. After ten years, here’s what we learned. Hopefully, this thing lives long after me and that they can say, hey. This is where it started.
Here’s how we built on it. But we really do think that you can learn a lot from from the book. I mean, that’s why we wrote it. When I come out of an expedition, I I can tell you exactly on on the drive home by myself. I’m always by myself on the drive home, and it’s I’m doing an after action review, and I’m going through each person.
Did we meet their expectations? Who who do I think got the most benefit out of this trip? Did I change somebody’s life? In fact, I interviewed a guy today that I mean, it was on LinkedIn Live, and it’s on YouTube. But I interviewed him today, Dan Morostica.
And of all the people that have gone over ten years, his life changed the most. He wasn’t fit. He decided to get fit. He’s climbed 19 fourteeners here in Colorado since that crucible. He’s gotten healthy.
He’s taken his family. He got two big, huge promotions where his career was sort of just chugging along. That crucible changed his life, which is really cool. Does it change everybody’s? Of course not.
But I always look at it, and I always think, who who’s changed the most? And, of course, we have a a post crucible survey that we ask people to fill out, and we look at that. But the other thing that we did in getting ready for the book or to write the book is my co author interviewed a lot of people that were past participants, and we grabbed their stories. And and that was validation that there’s two experience with the crucible. There’s experience while they’re out there.
And, some of it might be cold, wet, tired. They’re never hungry. But cold, wet, tired, where it may hey. This isn’t that fun when the wind’s whipping and cold. And then there’s the after effect when they get to reflect on it, and then they look at their pictures, and they’re like, man, I can’t believe we’re in that gorgeous place.
And and they process it. I’ve I’ve had two people that were absolutely miserable and really miserable on the crucible and let me know it, that it was not meeting their expectations. And I both those gentlemen, I could tell you as they reflected, they looked back and went, yeah, I I could have behaved a lot differently, but here’s what I took away. Here’s what I learned about myself. And that was also validation.
But the other thing, Peter, and this is the last thing I’ll say is I’ve never come out of a crucible and felt like I I, as a leader, gained earned an A plus. I mean, every time I’ve come out of a crucible, I thought, I’ll give myself an A for the design. I designed a really great environment for great things to happen. I give myself an a on design, on the actual leading and interacting with people and all that out there. I always feel I should step back even more.
I and I’ve gotten better at letting things just happen, but it’s hard. It’s really hard to just let things percolate and happen and and be in the background.
Peter: Let mistakes be made, etcetera. Yep.
Jan: Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard. But, really that’s a really good question. I’ve never been asked that one before, Peter.
Peter: The book is available for presale?
Jan: Yep. It’s on anywhere you buy a book. It’s out there. It’s through Bambela Books distributed by Penguin Random House. So it it’s everywhere you get your books.
And, yeah, preorder now and then for sale August 20. And if anybody’s interested in the workbook or the assessment, which is a little extra things that we’ve got, just send me a note and correspond with me directly, and I can get you some extra goodies for listening to this podcast. I’ll I’ll be glad to do that.
Peter: Excellent. Thank you, Jan. What remind me of the website again as well.
Jan: Selfreliantleadership.com. Selfreliantleadership.com.
Peter: Got it. And you in addition to the crucibles, you are also a management consultant?
Jan: Yeah. Executive coach. Leadership. Work with a lot of leaders mainly at the C suite level.
Peter: Mhmm.
Jan: And, again, what a privilege it is to to work with people and try to help them be more effective leaders better so they can create better teams.
Peter: Great. Well, it’s been a pleasure to have you on the podcast today, and can’t wait to see the book out in the wild and wish you all the best success with that.
Jan: Thanks, Peter. It was a privilege. Thank you.
Peter: Thanks for listening to this episode of Biz and Life Done Well with Peter Wilson. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and most of the other popular podcast platforms. Please tell your friends about us and leave us a review so even more people will find out about us. Thanks again. We’ll see you soon.
