Title: Rachel Morgan – How To Sell Without Sounding Salesy

Guest: Rachel Morgan

Peter: Welcome to the Biz and Life Done Well podcast, where we explore what it means and what it takes to do business and life well. I’m your host, Peter Wilson. If you’re like me, you’re intrigued by stories of common people who have achieved uncommon success in business and life. Join me as I interview fascinating people about how they got started, their successes and failures, their habits and routines, and what inspires them. Today, my guest is Rachel Morgan.

Rachel: Thank you for having me on. I’m so excited to be here.

Peter: So today we have a really great topic, how to sell without sounding salesy. Wow, that’s huge. Now I’m going to digress here a little bit. So when I first got started in my career, I was challenged by the company that I got hired by to go get another sales job for a month because I had zero sales experience and they hired me to be a salesperson. And I’m like, well, this is weird, but I’ll do it because it was a great job with this marine electronic company.

So I ended up working for a company that sold Jacuzzis for like three weeks. Like after three weeks, I called the company and said, yeah, I’m working. And they said, oh yeah, you don’t have to do it for a month. You’re done. Just get over here and start working with us.

But it was cool because I had no sales experience. And I went into it thinking, wow, sales. I don’t want to sound salesy. What was funny was guy that I worked for was this guy, he called himself Jacuzzi Jim. Super cheesy.

So I learned everything about the way not to sell. Like he told me literally, what you do is you talk to somebody about what they want to buy and then you have a notepad and you’re writing it down. And then you put your pen, and we’re just going to have to visualize this, you hold your pen at the top of the notebook and then you let it roll down the page so the customer grabs the pen and then you hand them the clipboard with their order on it so they could sign it.

Rachel: I’ve never heard that before.

Peter: Well, I mean, it’s actually super cheesy, right? It’s like, this is like not what we’re talking about at all,

Rachel: right? Of course.

Peter: So astounding salesy. So you’ve written up some tips here. You’ve got six tips, and I think it’s really your first one. Let’s go into that. Your first one is slow down.

So what do you mean by that?

Rachel: Sure. So I think when it comes to being salesy, it really means that we jump right into the sale and we get excited about it. I mean, who isn’t excited about a prospect or someone inquiring about what we do? And so we let this excitement kind of fuel us and we go right into our pitch. And what ends up happening is it feels so intense for the customer and really just overwhelming.

So my first tip is that we slow it down and avoid jumping right into your sales pitch. Really, it’s like your business will still be there tomorrow and your product. And so when you’re able to slow it down, you actually really end up differentiating yourself because most people want to just tell you about their business. And I think most importantly, we have to remember it’s not a race to the end. We want a customer to continue buying from us.

So we are so quick, they’re turned off.

Peter: That’s true. And I think what’s interesting is I’m shopping for a car. Well, I’m in the process of buying a vehicle, and I was at this dealership. I visited several dealerships and most of the people that I talked to only wanted to figure out if I was ready to buy today. They didn’t really care about what I was looking for.

All they cared about was what was on their lot and how they could get me into one of those vehicles and what I can afford and all this stuff. I’m like, I really that’s way beyond where I’m at. I am looking for a very specific type of vehicle. So what happened was I did speak with one gentleman at a Lexus dealership who was a little older, wanted to just kind of hear my story. And if they had had the vehicle that I was looking for, I would have bought it from this guy in a heartbeat.

And by the way, he was the only person out of like three or four salespeople I talked to over the last week that actually called me back the next day.

Rachel: I love that.

Peter: He slowed down. He was not in a hurry. He was like, well, we need to find you the car that you are looking for. So he made it about me and not about him. So I think for me, that was sort of that same experience, right?

It was like, he didn’t have to sell me on the car. Was already sold on it, right? You know? So that’s good. So avoid jumping straight into your sales pitch.

So what are some questions that we can ask a potential client or somebody? What is a good way to kind of slow down? Because I think we have to have some cues in our mind, right? Like maybe I should ask about blah blah or blah blah. Do you have any ideas on that?

Rachel: Yeah. Well, just to kind of answer what you said before too, like I’ve definitely been to a car dealership and knock on even out of my car, and they’re already trying to get me into another car. It’s all about the approach there, right? And how comfortable you feel. And you’ve already demonstrated the difference of someone who jumps right in and someone who doesn’t and how important that is just for the first impression that you have.

In terms of questions, I always recommend that you lead with an open ended question. So not just any question, but an open ended one. An open ended question is a question that opens a conversation as opposed to a closed ended one, which closes it off. So a closed ended question would typically get you a response like yes or no. Whereas an open ended question will give you some more detail.

Peter: What brings you in today?

Rachel: Exactly. So it helps you to learn more about the customer’s motives and how you can best help them, which is what we want to do, right? We want to help our customers.

Peter: Right.

Rachel: So an example, like you just said, is what brings you in? Or what encouraged you to reach out? Or what have you tried in the past? What is your desired outcome? How urgent is the concern that you have?

Peter: Yeah, one of the things that I try to ask people when I’m having abecause we offer like free marketing consultations. And one of the things that I offer, one of the questions I ask that kind of blows people away is, so what would make our meeting today a home run for you?

Rachel: That’s a good one.

Peter: And they’re just like, wow. It’s also a qualifying question too, because I can judge how serious they are about what we’re talking about.

Rachel: Right. Yes. And they’re taken aback by the fact that you would ask such a question because they’re not expecting it, which goes back to my other point too, is that it differentiates you.

Peter: Yes.

Rachel: They take you more seriously.

Peter: Yeah. And it shows that I want this to be the best experience for you. So we’ve kind of jumped through a couple of your tips here. So we’ve got slow down. Second is ask open ended questions.

Third is make the conversation about them. And I think we’ve really, demonstrated that with what we’re talking about. Is there anything else you want to add about making the conversation about them?

Rachel: Sure. So again, kind of going back to my last point, but it all relates. When we ask a close ended question like, is there something I can help you with? We intended to be very genuine and authentic, but what it actually portrays is that it looks like you need help, you don’t know what you’re doing. And nobody likes to admit that they need help, especially from someone that they don’t perceive as an expert.

And so when we change the dialogue and we ask open ended questions, it starts to make it about the customer and what they want and what they need. And then it shows that you are there to help with them, not for them. And so also having those open ended questions, like you can’t sell someone something if you don’t know why they need it. Like you just can’t. Sales is all about benefits.

And so when you switch the dialogue and you make it about the customer, then you start learning why they need it and it makes it easier to sell. One of my favorite quotes and I think this is, I love this, I stand by this is, If people like you they will listen to you. If they trust you they’ll do business with you. And we want people to listen to us but we really just want them to buy from us. And so in order to start building trust, we have to show that we’re invested in them and the outcome.

By asking questions and making it about them, we become less transactional, so less salesy, and we start sharing genuine interest and positioning ourselves as an expert, which is what we want.

Peter: That’s good. Yeah. One of the other things that I’ve noticed in some settings is, you know, I’ll be looking at something and they’ll say, Hey, did you see the new blah, blah, blah? Which is a closed end question, but it’s not going straight at me like trying to sell me that thing. So that seems like a, or did you hear about this?

Which again, those are closed ended questions, but they’re icebreakers. I’m just thinking specifically of like being in a store where they sell boats or something like that.

Rachel: Okay.

Peter: Like you’re not going to be standing there unless you’re interested in boats anyway, It’s a different audience, right? It’s not like you’re in some other type of setting. What they’re trying to show is a genuine, like an interest in that and they want to gauge whether or not I share that same level of interest in that particular product, right?

Rachel: Of course. Yes. There is a time and place for closed ended questions, yes. But I really believe when you are initially helping a customer and getting to know them and understand, open ended questions is the way to go. Right.

And yes, it sounds like they’re trying to re approach and open the conversation. And I think what you said that was most important is customers reach out or come in for a reason, and we forget that. And so when we don’t try to find out that reason, we lose. Everyone loses. The customer loses because they don’t get what they need, and we lose because we didn’t learn anything.

Right. And so it really is important to come with that mindset when you’re helping customers.

Peter: So one of the concepts of this StoryBrand, which is a book, Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller, we have a person who’s a business coach certified through StoryBand. One of the things that they talk about in the sort of the customer journey, the customer story, where the customer is the hero as the business or the sales person, you are the guide, right? You’re not the hero. You’re the guide. But one of the points that they make early on in their, in sort of their thesis is that every character in a story has a problem and we are always trying to solve a problem regardless of what we’re buying.

For example, we are trying to solve a problem. 100%. Yes. So I think what you’re talking about is that, which may seem counterintuitive if you, I know you have a background in jewelry, for example, but I am sure that there is, it may not be that my finger is empty and it needs to have a ring on it. It could be more about like, how does that make me feel and things like that, where you’re getting more into the emotional problem, right?

That they’re trying to solve. But you’re right, they’re always trying to solve something and there is always a reason why they’re there. So discovering that can be very helpful, especially if you can get to that second level, right? Like in a lot of things that we sell, like we sell websites. And I might just pull up your website and go, yeah, this is garbage.

You need a new website. But that’s just sort of the external problem. But then the next level is, how does that make you feel?

Rachel: Which is very emotional. Yeah, absolutely.

Peter: So it’s well, it makes me feel it may not have anything to do with business either. You might just go, My family thinks I’m a loser because my website looks bad. Right? I mean, that’s not why we sell websites, but that could be a motivator in somebody’s mind. They might not even verbalize that, but that’s really what they’re thinking.

And then you go down to the philosophical level. So you can just keep peeling that onion to go farther and farther. So anyway, we can talk about that later. But I just thought that that was an interesting thing. There’s always a reason.

So let’s help discover that. So your fourth tip is repeat back using customer words. So tell me about that.

Rachel: Yeah, so once you, right, you slow down, you avoid jumping into your pitch, you start asking questions and you start making about them. We want to start demonstrating our authority and that we’re listening. Active listening is so important in sales. It says, I’m here for you. I had genuine interest in the outcome and I want to help you.

And so by repeating back what they’ve said using the exact words shows that you really are listening and again like I said starts to position you as an expert. So for example if someone says I’m coming in or I’m needing a new website and you might ask something like okay well tell me more like what are your goals? How urgent is this for you? What made you reach out now? And they might say, Oh, well, I’m really just not seeing customers.

I’d like to have a more polished and clean website and I want it to convert. And they might say, Great, I can understand that need of wanting to convert customers and having a more clean and polished website. What would that feel like for you? And so you just start kind of going back and forth and mirroring what they’ve said and repeating it saying, okay, heard you say this, what does that look like for you? Just keep going back and forth and your interpretation of those words is not necessarily theirs.

And so by using my verbiage and asking questions around it, you’re going to get a clearer understanding. And then they’re like, wow, this person gets me. And when they feel heard, oh my gosh, it is magic.

Peter: Yeah, that’s great. That makes a ton of sense. It’s hard to do sometimes though. Sometimes we’re not active listening. We’re waiting for the person to stop talking so we can say what we want to say.

Rachel: Yes. Passive listening. Yes. When we listen to understand versus listening to respond.

Peter: Right. I do a lot of listening to respond. It takes practice, right?

Rachel: Oh, absolutely. It’s not as easy as it sounds. It definitely takes practice and we’re not perfect. It’s a progress.

Peter: What I think has helped me the most is in a conversation asking the right questions.

Rachel: And that takes practice.

Peter: Because when I ask a question that I genuinely want to know the answer to, and I feel like it’s of value to the person I’m talking to, then it’s a lot easier to be an active listener.

Rachel: Yes.

Peter: And sometimes there are times when people just want to, I don’t know how to put this, waste your time by

Rachel: Like as a customer or as a Yes. Sales Yeah.

Peter: Yes. Yes. Like, they’ve been locked up in their house for the last year. They haven’t spoken to anybody And in they just want to tell you about whatever, which I feel for people that are in that situation. But how do you sort of handle that sort of situation?

I know this really is not on your topic here, but you know, there are times when we have folks that we’re dealing with that are not really qualified. I mean, part of sales is getting to the sale. One of the things that we want to make sure is, you know, the person we’re talking to is qualified to make this transaction. So maybe this is a different topic for another day, but I’m interested in this.

Rachel: Sure. It is a little off topic, but I think that it all relates. And it relates because you can ask questions and get to know them. I think with COVID, even myself, like the connection, we lack it. And some of us don’t have people around us that we can interact with.

Some people may not even see anyone at all any day. And so we never know how when we have these conversations with people that just kind of want to talk, how we impact them. Mean we could really make their day and at some point they felt comfortable enough and trusted us enough to come talk to us. And so you never know how that can turn into something later, who they can recommend you to if they’ll say yes. But making a difference in someone’s life is kind of why we’re in business.

And so if we even have to take that time to talk to them and just be there for them, that is huge. However, with that said, if this is a constant thing, you have to set boundaries sometimes and so depending what they’re asking for looking for you might start saying okay well we have this resource I really recommend you check this out and kind of put it in their hands to do it themselves but still making yourself available and still having a smile on your face and like, you just never know how things can develop.

Peter: Right. That’s true. That’s true. I’ve run into a couple clients that were clearly not qualified for our services. And I was able to really give them some sound advice.

They were very thankful. And, you know, I’ve had, in one case, they recommended me to somebody else, just like you were saying, and that turned into a great outcome for us. So let’s move on here. Your next tip, number five, avoid selling with your own wallet. Wow, this is super important.

I want to hear what you have to say about this.

Rachel: Yes. So from my experience, right, I was a store manager for quite a few years, is price is always the hardest thing to talk about and discuss and can really hold people back. And so all I have to say is when it comes to sales you don’t ever want to talk about something as being expensive or cheap. They are not fact, they’re actually an opinionated word. And so when you describe something as being expensive you’ve already put into your customer’s mind that this is costly and more expensive than it could be.

And so they start to think of it that way and then maybe don’t want to spend that. And when you use the word cheap, right, it implies that this is cheap but what if they loved it and you just now devalued it for them? I have completely run into this. It is not a fun mistake to have and I learned the hard way when I was first starting that you want to avoid those words and so the better way to say it is something costs more or costs less and explain why. But when I talk about shopping with your own wallet, when we foresee something that’s expensive we might not show it because we’re afraid that they’re going to feel that way and go why are you showing me this?

Like this is clearly out of budget. However, if you know what you have is good and you know that it’s a solution for their needs, the price literally doesn’t matter. You have to sell on benefits and believe in it enough and the price will just, it literally doesn’t matter. It’s the last thing I always brought up in my sales pitch if at all because it just is so irrelevant. Mean granted if someone has a budget of $100 and you start showing $10,000 that’s a difference, You want to think about price a little bit more.

However with that said, if that $10,000 product is going to change their life you should absolutely show it because it gives them the option to say no and who knows they might say yes. Like I was just reading a book, I know the language it’s called You’re a Badass at Making Money and she was talking about how she was making $80,000 a year. That’s it, if even. And she came across this coach that she knew would be life changing and the coach was $85,000 so it cost more for one month with that coach than what she made in a year. But she was determined and she somehow came up with the money and made it happen.

So you never know what people are willing to spend or when they’re ready and just because they’re not ready now doesn’t mean they won’t be in the future. So always show what you think is the best solution for the customer.

Peter: This point is so important because I’ve worked with sales folks as well. I mean, I’ve been in sales myself. And putting your ownI mean, I love the way you put this, don’t use your own wallet to shop, because I’ve been blown away by showing businesses some of the services that we offer. And when we first started, like we really stepped up our offerings and we added on a huge benefit, huge value chunk that added like $2,500 onto every website. And I was like, at first I was like, I don’t think these people will go for it.

But every single time, we’ve done this like 20 times now, every single time that I explained the benefit of this piece of the service, like if you’re going to do a website with us, we need to really clarify your marketing messaging first. This is, if you want a site that’s going to live and work and convert and get leads and work for you for, you know, three or four years, you really need to do this process first. And I explained the process. By the time I’m done explaining the process, they’re like, where do I sign? They didn’t even ask me what the price was.

Rachel: Because you believed in it so much you knew it would benefit them and they believed it too and they trusted you.

Peter: Yeah. So when we first started doing this, I was just thinking, nah, it’s not going to work. So it is so true. I mean, it’s just unbelievable. And again, you’re talking about how to sell without sounding salesy.

You know, I think this one in particular is just a really good tip for anybody who is selling just, you know, and it takes a while to train yourself to do that. But once you do, it And changes the what it really comes down to is something I call value, right? It’s like the value that somebody sees for that. I mean, the value is going to be, in the sense of the thing that I was talking about, the value is way more than the $2,500 that we charge for that. It’s in, you know, like if you look at it in thewe have a client who went through the process last year, a roofing company.

The last person I would think would want to do this messaging clarification. Well, last year they quadrupled their business. Now, I’m not going to say it was all because of that, it definitely played a part in that. I mean, and the value is way more than $2,500 Sure. As

Rachel: I will definitely say that things that I’ve perceived as being more expensive, right, I’ve had customers offended that it felt cheap to them, that the price seemed too low for what it was, where I’m over here thinking something costs too much, right? So you literally never know. And I think one of the mistakes two people make when it comes to money and prices is maybe a customer comes in and one of the first things they say is my budget is $100 And so they focus so much on that $100 that they’ll show anything up to $100 that they forget to show something that’s maybe $120 So what if that $120 item was actually better for them and you didn’t even show them? You disserviced the customer, your product, and yourself. And so never be afraid to show something a little more that might actually be better.

And like that’s just like not even a definite $100 right? Like people will spend more, like I said, if it’s the right product and it meets their needs.

Peter: Right, exactly. So your last tip, confident. Yes. So let’s talk about that.

Rachel: Always easier said than done, right? I’ve heard from people that they’re so afraid to put themselves out there or to mention that they have this product because they’re afraid of what others think. The reality is if you work hard on something you should be proud of it and you should put it out there because trust me someone will benefit from what you’ve done And even if it’s one person, you changed one person’s life. And that is so meaningful and so impactful. And like I said, you’ve worked hard, showcase it.

And if someone is offended, they are not your ideal customer. Like get rid of them and that is on them.

Peter: It’s a bit of a fear of rejection, right? And you were talking about dealing with fear of rejection, which is, I think there’s a guy who’s a marketing expert called Seth Godin. He’s great. And he talks about presenting opportunities to people. And if people are offended or it wasn’t for them, is what he says.

It wasn’t for them. You didn’t make it for them. You made it for somebody else.

Rachel: Yes. It’s hard when you, you know, like on social media presence and you’re trying to gain a following or convert people and you have people unfollow you. Like it’s very personal feeling, but you have to remind yourself, these people are not for me. They don’t want what I have to offer. It’s better to get rid of them now and start focusing on the people who do want me.

Just be confident what you have to do. And people want to see who you are. They want the genuine authentic you. And if you’re trying to not be yourself to appease people and keep them, like it’s not good either. Like you’re not going to be happy.

The customers aren’t going to be happy. So be yourself, be confident, be proud.

Peter: That’s great. Well, Rachel, this has been a great conversation, and I’m so happy that you joined me today. So you put together a PDF, and we will have this available in the show notes. Now, if somebody wants to track you down, what’s the best way for them to, you know, to follow you and that sort of thing?

Rachel: Yes, I always love to meet new people. So the best way to follow me is you can find me on Instagram. My handle is remorgan m o r g n I believe it will also be in the bio then you can also follow me on Facebook my handle right now is rachelmorganconsulting so r a c h e l m o r g a n Consulting. They can email me at remorganoutlook dot com. And if you’re interested in learning more, I am working on a course that will hopefully launch this month in April.

So more information to come. You can find out more by following me or, of course, sending me an email.

Peter: Thanks for listening to this episode of Biz and Life Done Well with Peter Wilson. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and most of the other popular podcast platforms. Please tell your friends about us and leave us a review so even more people will find out about us. Thanks again. We’ll see you soon.