011: Andrew Ball – Acupuncturist With Vitruvian Holistic Healthcare

Title: Andrew Ball – Acupuncturist With Vitruvian Holistic Healthcare

Guest: Andrew Ball

Peter: Welcome to the Biz and Life Done Well podcast where we explore what it means and what it takes to do business and life well. I’m your host, Peter Wilson. If you’re like me, you’re intrigued by stories of common people who have achieved uncommon success in business and life. Join me as I interview fascinating people about how they got started, their successes and failures, their habits and routines, and what inspires them. Today, my guest is Andrew Ball.

Andrew, welcome to the podcast.

Andrew: Thank you, Peter. Appreciate being here.

Peter: So, I’d like to get started by just finding out a little bit about you.

Andrew: I grew up in Michigan, moved to, moved to Chicago, for college, stayed there for almost eleven years, did a little stint in San Diego, interim there, and then moved out to Seattle, I guess, coming up on seven years ago. Okay. So You don’t look that old. Yeah. You know, 62, is is the is the age.

No. I’m I’m in my I’m in the mid my mid thirties, so that’s that’s about the right timeline there, if you if you do the math.

Peter: Alright. Where’d you go to school in, Chicago?

Andrew: So I actually spent a year in Michigan at, Grand Valley State University, which was Okay. A it’s actually a large school, but it’s a it’s a division two division two school. Moved down to Loyola Chicago, from the the, the final four this last year, if you remember. Moved down to Loyola Chicago after a year.

Peter: Didn’t, but, you know.

Andrew: Well, come on. Yeah. And then, and then stayed there for a while, and then I actually ended up doing grad graduate school and starting in Chicago, going to San Diego, and then coming back to Chicago with Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.

Peter: Okay. Great. So you and I know each other through a networking group and also you’re an acupuncturist. How do you describe you know exactly your profession and any of the you know, qualifications and things like that?

Andrew: It’s a good question. So so my degree is doctor of acupuncture in Chinese medicine. Unfortunately, we don’t have a national, we have national certification. We don’t have a national license per se. So depending on what your what state you’re in, that that changes.

Peter: Oh.

Andrew: And then we’re in the process of transitioning over from what used to be called a masters of, well, was either traditional oriental medicine or traditional Chinese medicine, over to, what’s become known as the first professional doctorate, which is the degree that I have. The school that I went to actually was the, sort of the the model for that. And then there’s another degree on top of that called a Doctorate of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, DAOM as opposed to the DACM that I have, which is sort of like a PhD. It’s a little bit more research based. It’s sort of the medical PhD as opposed to an MD.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: So in the state, however, because this is all a little bit different state to state, our current licensure is, East Asian Medical Practitioner, EAMP. There’s lots of acronyms here. Okay. Licensed acupuncturist. For those of us who’ve been licensed long enough, we were grandfathered in and could say licensed acupuncturist.

So, after my name, you’ll see d a c m and l a c.

Peter: Perfect.

Andrew: Suppose all the other things could potentially be on guard. What

Peter: was the length of your actual sort of medical school versus your traditional undergrad type?

Andrew: Two parts here. So my my my personal, length was four years of undergrad, a little bit of post back work, and then four years of, or three years and eight months straight through without breaks, of of graduate school and then another year on top

Peter: of that

Andrew: for the for the doctorate program. You can theoretically go through and and enter matriculate with just an associate’s degree, so you don’t necessarily have

Peter: to Four have

Andrew: year. Four year, you you do have to have all the postbac work, all the different sciences and and things that most people are entering with a bachelor’s, as opposed to an associate’s.

Peter: So Got it.

Andrew: Start to finish high school to practice. It’s at least eight years for most

Peter: Got it. Why did you decide to go into Chinese or East Asian medicine?

Andrew: You know, I I started as you know, I started in Western medicine. Mhmm. I was I was medical school bound. Mhmm. I had my I had my letters from a couple different schools and decided that it really wasn’t where I wanted to be for a number of reasons.

Chinese medicine wasn’t necessarily the one thing that I was drawn to at that particular point in time.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: It was more the holistic side of things. Mhmm. And I was sort of searching for something that was as, as complete of a medical system as I could find.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: I actually have an uncle who’s a who’s an acupuncturist and herbalist. And has been for, oh god, I don’t know, probably thirty years. Mhmm. We weren’t super close. He was in the Bay Area.

Grew up in Michigan, so I saw him from time to time. But, I was aware of it, and happened to be talking to him. I think I was I was working at DePaul in a research house at that point in time, DePaul University, and had something that came up related to Chinese medicine and and had asked him about it. And that started another dialogue between us and I started talking to him more about what the career prospects were and, what his, you know, what his practice was like. Mhmm.

There happened to be one of the better schools in the country, about four blocks from where my apartment was at the time. So I went down and and met a few people there and learned a lot more, and it really clicked, when when I got there. The the reasons I left Western medicine, everybody’s heard these things before. Right? The sick care versus health care debate and not getting to spend enough time with your patients, and you’re just a cog in a machine and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

So I wanted more autonomy. I wanted to be able to spend more time with my patients as I saw fit. Right. So not working for a hospital essentially. Mhmm.

And really like the educational aspect of this medicine. I get to spend a lot of time educating people, about health, correcting some misconceptions, and and really helping them to take control of their health. That’s that’s the that’s the ultimate goal as opposed to just pushing drugs on people, pushing surgery on people. Right. Give them a deeper understanding as to, you know, what they’re doing, how it’s impacting their health and wellness, and how they can change some of those things or or not in certain situations.

Mhmm. I’m not I’m not diehard in my field like a lot of people are. I I do recommend people, back to their primaries for surgery and drugs sometimes, but I it’s certainly not the first defense.

Peter: Is there a simple way to say or tell us the difference in approach traditional western medicine versus the eastern philosophy?

Andrew: So what we need to first do is define western medicine not as western medicine but as allopathic medicine.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: And that opens us up to not just Chinese medicine, but any holistic therapy, which includes things like chiropractic and massage and naturopathy. Yeah. Okay. So allopathic medicine, the root there is essentially you’re treating something that’s wrong. Right.

Okay. Right. With holistic therapies, what we’re trying to do is keep the body balanced enough so that things don’t go wrong. Okay. That’s that’s the primary difference.

Peter: Got it. Okay.

Andrew: The way that we can kind of break that down a little bit further is that in Western medicine we have what I refer to as verticals, which are otherwise known as specialties. Yes. You’re a cardiologist or you’re an oncologist or whatever it

Peter: is. Yeah.

Andrew: And you don’t really stray too far outside those those bounds. Right. It’s it’s, in my opinion and in the opinion of a lot of medical professionals, pretty foolish to think that those things are so separate that people treating a condition take your pick, cancer is is a great example. That that’s not related to pretty much every other system, in your body, the way that you’re the way that you’re eating, the way that you’re living, the way that you’re what you’re surrounding yourself with. Those are all intertwined.

Mhmm. Western allopathic medicine is sort of designed on an algorithm.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: So you start with a problem and you go through a bunch of yes or no answers. Lab values, answers, symptoms, whatever they might be. Mhmm. And then you come up with a solution, a diagnosis and a treatment at the other end. Whereas holistic therapies are more of a circular diagnostic process, where you’re starting at one and you’re looking at all the other components and seeing how wrong or right those all are and synthesizing to then spit out a diagnosis and a treatment plan at the end.

So it’s a different thought process really when you’re approaching the diagnostic process. It’s an investigatory process that’s not it’s not as linear, I guess, is the is the biggest the biggest piece there.

Peter: Mhmm. So I’ve recommended acupuncture and, you know, other therapies to well, I’ve just, you know, referred you as well, to folks. What’s interesting is, a lot of folks will say, wow, I’ve never thought of trying acupuncture. So for anybody listening who’s never thought of, you know, considering acupuncture not necessarily for a specific symptom, but just in general, what would you say to those folks?

Andrew: Considering it not for a specific symptom?

Peter: Well, I’m I’m not trying to say Sure. I’m not trying to recommend a specific, you know

Andrew: Well, and so so so this is, I I guess, getting back to your last question about what what’s the difference between Western and Eastern. Yep. Yep. In my field, we can treat what would otherwise be acute things, symptoms that show up for people, that’s not the unique value proposition. Got it.

Because you can do that in Western medicine as well. Sure. It’s the preventive aspect.

Peter: Got it.

Andrew: And it’s the subacute treatment. Subacute meaning things that are not really problems for you yet. Your lab values aren’t quite there to diagnose you with Right. That’s where we really excel. And people say, well, yeah, I don’t really need to get any not for me specifically, but I don’t need to get any treatment because I don’t have anything wrong.

Maybe. Right. But it’s pretty far and few between where I run into somebody where we can improve their health in some way. Whether that’s, again, diet or stress levels

Peter: or whatever it is. So how they’re sleeping.

Andrew: How they’re sleeping. All these things manifest at some point in some problems for people even if they’re not seeing the direct link. And that’s a big schism and thought, in this country in particular because people go to the doctor when something is wrong. Right. Not when something’s not wrong.

Peter: Right.

Andrew: And that’s that’s really when we would prefer they come in so that we don’t get to that next stage where they’ve got, you know, they’ve developed something. I tend to treat a lot of orthopedic conditions.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: That’s a bit of a different situation. If you haven’t rolled your ankle, I don’t need you to come in to not roll your ankle. Right. Right. I mean Right.

We’re talking more in internal medicine with that with the preventive aspect. Yeah. But

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: It’s an interesting experience and it’s an easier experience and a more pleasant experience if people are coming in when they don’t have something major that’s going on. So that’s that’s really the sell, I guess.

Peter: Got it. You found that this area is, Seattle area is fairly accepting and, open to the ideas of the Chinese or Asian medicine?

Andrew: Yeah. So I practiced in Chicago before I moved here. And, the conversations that you’re having with people whom you don’t know Mhmm. Are very different. In in the Midwest, it was more describing or more definitional.

Right? Like, what is acupuncture?

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: Versus out here, it tends to be more, well, what does it treat? They Oh. Pretty much everybody out here if they haven’t had it, and I forget what the market penetration is.

Peter: Yeah.

Andrew: But it’s it’s fairly high Mhmm. In comparison to the Midwest anyhow.

Peter: Right.

Andrew: They I’ve people out here have either had it or their family members have had it or their friends have had it. They they know somebody who’s had an experience with Chinese medicine. Mhmm. So they’re more about applying it to themselves. Versus in the Midwest, it’s it’s still less so in Chicago because it’s a major metro area.

Mhmm. But, like, when I go back to my parents’ place in Michigan, people are looking at you as as sort of a novelty, a lot of the time because they just never heard of it. They they don’t know what it is. They don’t know anything about it. That’s that’s the biggest difference I get.

Peter: So once you finish school, is there a is there a practicum or a internship or whatever you

Andrew: have to do? There’s a national licensure that you have to go through.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: Unless you’re in California, they have their own licensure Mhmm. Which is actually a little bit above and beyond the national licensure. So you have to go through it’s boards, essentially. So you have to go through and pass your boards, and then you have to go through whatever state you’re in, and get your license. There is not a requirement for fellowship or internship like you would find in in Western medicine.

Mhmm. It’s advisable a lot of the time, but the infrastructure isn’t really there to necessarily support survival. Right. You you don’t really get paid for those primarily. Or if you do, it’s very, very low wages.

Okay. So I would say most people don’t end up doing that. Mhmm. Our field has a larger attrition than some of the other Oh. Medical fields as well.

And I I think that’s part of the reason is people are they’re not making money fast enough, so they end up doing something else.

Peter: You were with another clinic and then you started your own. Right?

Andrew: Yeah. I’ve I’ve floated around a little bit. I think, depending on how you measure it, I’ve had seven clinics over the years. I’m not leaving the one that I currently have. So that one’s that that’s it.

Okay. Good. I was I was with another I was I was a I was a partner in another company, and, it a it was a wellness clinic, and I had started the the acupuncture program there Mhmm. And left there in 2015.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: And that’s when I actually officially moved up to the Edmonds area. I have a friend who is a he’s an upper cervical chiropractor, whom whom you’ve met.

Peter: Yep. Yep.

Andrew: He had an office that he was opening up, and said, hey. I’ve got an extra room. And I was leaving my other company quickly, I guess, be the term. Okay. And needed some place to land my patients, and that worked out well.

That was supposed to be a short term gig, but because because Kevin and I are friends, I enjoyed being in the space, and he wasn’t in any rush for me to leave. And that just sort of turned into I think we’re four years on now.

Peter: Oh,

Andrew: cool. So

Peter: yeah. And then your other clinic is?

Andrew: My other clinic is down in Burien. I opened that, I guess next month will be two years.

Peter: Congrats.

Andrew: Thank you. That’s been a a great space. It’s my own space. I’ve always shared or rented space, from other people. Mhmm.

My own space and it’s been, it’s been great. That’s why said I’m not leaving that one. My other clinic is at a point now, where I’m not I’m not working sixty hour weeks. It’s it’s starting to self sustain, which is great, and it’s it’s providing an income, a comfortable income for me now at this point, which is great. Mhmm.

So hiring somebody this year is probably the next step. So business life done well. Right? So I’ve I’ve I’ve sort of in the last couple of years since opening this other clinic really sort of modified some of my goals Okay. And taken a hard look at what my goals are for my business that are my goals as opposed extrinsic goals, things that people have just assumed that you’re going to do.

Yeah. And five years ago when I was I was opening a clinic here, in in the Northwest, I was totally into the option of, or or the goal, I guess, of having three or four clinics around town. I I don’t know as though I’m in that space anymore.

Peter: Okay. Do you have anybody working for you?

Andrew: I don’t. I have tried to design a super lean business model in that sense.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: I I don’t have anybody at the front desk. I don’t have anybody at this point doing my billing. I don’t have anybody doing really anything in my office anyhow. I’ve I’ve out I have outsourced a few of those things. Mhmm.

Some marketing Right.

Peter: Of course.

Andrew: Yeah. But but my goal is to never have anybody in the office, that is not licensed in in seeing patients.

Peter: Got it. And that makes sense. What is your philosophy of care?

Andrew: Well, whole whole person is always the biggest piece. Right? And people come in and they’ve got a problem with something and you start asking questions about something else and they’re going, no, no, no, no. The problem’s over here. And it’s I I know.

That’s why I’m asking about this other piece. There’s a lot of, compartmentalization that patients go through. And you know, that’s what they’re taught. That’s the medical system they’ve grown up in. If your knee hurts, it’s a problem with your knee.

It’s

Peter: not a

Andrew: problem with anything else. Curiosity is a big component, of my care. You have to ask a lot of questions. You have to dig. So when I was in the the the western medical world, I was in forensic pathology before that

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: Which is sort of the investigatory side of medicine. Right? That’s that’s what forensics is. That’s part of the reason I was drawn to to Chinese medicine, guess, to answer a little bit more on one of your previous questions. Yeah.

So my philosophy of care is really getting down to the root of the problem, figuring out what is causing whatever people are experiencing. I mean, people come in, they complain of symptoms. Right? They’re not coming in complaining of diagnoses. Right.

Sometimes they match up, but sometimes they don’t. Mhmm. And then I like to give people the option. I I usually walk them through and I say, this is what you have going on. If you were to do a 100% of what I ask, this is where you’ll end up.

If you’re not willing to do a 100% Mhmm. And most people aren’t in some capacity some capacity, and that’s fine. I I certainly am not a 100% compliant.

Peter: Give me a bill. Don’t wanna do this.

Andrew: Well, yeah, that’s maybe a little bit less compliant than I would like, but but then we sort of work our way back down to what a good balance is. Okay. This is this is the amount that I need from you and this is how far we’re gonna get. Mhmm. And once we’ve decided that, then then the treatment plan is a lot easier.

Mhmm. Everybody knows what’s happening. That coupled with a lot of education. And I don’t often see patients’ eyes roll back in their head. Sometimes I do because I give them a lot of education about what they’re doing, how to change it, how to look out for changes in their health.

Mhmm. And and I want them to have that autonomy by the time they’re they’re done being treated at my office. I don’t want them coming in every week for the rest of their lives. Right. Financially, it’s good for me, but, it’s not interesting for me at that point.

So

Peter: Is there a case or a treatment or a patient that really sticks out as you really felt like, wow, I was really able to have a dramatic impact on that person?

Andrew: You know, honestly, I just yesterday, I had one that came in. For people who have have been around me enough, they know that there’s two things that I tend to talk about ad nauseam. One of them is not putting ice, on their injuries Yes. Which I know you’ve heard that Yes. Diatribe before.

Peter: Yes.

Andrew: The other one is nutrition, and really not even not even complicated nutrition, just decreasing the amount of carbs that we’re eating on a regular increasing the amount of healthy fats, pretty much ignoring a lot of what the USDA and FDA have done, over the last fifty, sixty years. And I have a patient whom I’ve been seeing, she’s 75. I’ve been seeing her for a year maybe. I see her about once every three months, and I’ve been asking her to change a few things with her diet. She has a pretty standard American diet for a 75 year old.

She has hypertension, prediabetes, she’s a little bit overweight, she doesn’t sleep well, acid reflux. I just saw her yesterday after giving a little talk, in the morning about fats and carbs and nutrition. And she did exactly what I asked her to do about two months ago. And I didn’t do this. I I told her about it.

I educated her on this and asked her to do this. Yeah. Her so she changed her diet. She dropped almost all the carbs. She got rid of the fruit.

She’s not eating any simple sugars, and she upped her healthy fats. And she dropped her triglycerides from five twelve to 90. What? Her total cholesterol, I think it was two thirty down to one sixty. Wow.

Lost 10 points off of her, blood pressure. She’s lost 12 pounds. Her A one C is down a little over a half a point, which is a it’s a marker for diabetes. Okay. A one C.

Peter: Yep.

Andrew: And what was the other oh, well, and I guess she’s sleeping well now. Right? So she’s she was getting nine to ten hours prior to this change and not feeling rested, now she’s getting eight and she’s feeling great, and she’s 75 years old. Wow. That wasn’t anything I did.

I just educated her on what needs to change. I mean, people have to be curious about their health. Everybody needs to be curious about their health. Mhmm. And if you just take what’s given to you as truth all the time, it leads you to where we’re at now, as a country, sicker than we’ve ever been.

Right. So I was not expecting changes like that for her. Mhmm. But it’s pretty dramatic.

Peter: What what do you think made the difference

Andrew: for her? Well, she told me what made the difference. It was, early on in the in the in the Christmas season. I guess it was sometime early December when she made this change, and she was just feeling bad all the time. Oh.

She was foggy headed and and just fell off and not sleeping well. I guess the other thing is that she hasn’t taken her, her Zantac Mhmm. Since Christmas because she hasn’t had any heartburn. Her heartburn was really bad. And she finally, after, you know, a year of me saying this needs to change So she was

Peter: and tired of feeling sick and tired.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. We’re not gonna get anywhere unless you change these things. Yeah. She said, what the heck?

Let’s give it a shot. And she did it, and her blood work came back seven, eight weeks later, which was just a couple weeks ago, with these pretty dramatic changes. Wow. So, yeah, people have to hit their breaking point, unfortunately, sometimes to affect some changes.

Peter: Right. Let’s talk about you a little bit. What sorts of, routines or habits do you have in particular, with respect to just, you know, healthy lifestyle or in your business life? What are the sort of habits and routines that you feel have, helped you become successful?

Andrew: You know, I was thinking about this on the way up here, because I I tend to be a very frenetic person. You should interview Anna, my partner, this because it takes a lot of patience for her to be with somebody like me. I I I’m very undisciplined in a lot of respects. Okay. I don’t have a lot of habits and routines necessarily.

I have to hit a breaking point with a lot of these things. Notorious for getting a little bit behind on billing. Have things that are being collected from eight months ago

Peter: now Oh.

Andrew: Which which can be problematic. Might wanna farm that out. Well, yeah, potentially. With so that’s with respect to my business. And then my my business, yeah, my business has been a little bit more, kinda going with the flow to a certain extent.

That’s why that’s why I got out of the hospital world. Right? I didn’t wanna be corporate.

Peter: Do know one routine you have with your business, which is, networking.

Andrew: Networking has been the biggest piece. It’s the most engaging for me. Mhmm. I I love talking to people. I love talking about my medicine.

I love talking about other people’s businesses. And whether that’s been with BNI or with the chamber or down in Burien, we’ve got something called Discover Burien, which is kind of the de facto chamber. I enjoy those things. And so that’s fun for me to it doesn’t feel like I’m working, I guess Right. When you’re networking.

Right. Versus going to a a networking meet and greet and you just jam cards into everybody’s everybody else’s hands for an hour and then you leave. That’s not fun.

Peter: Well, I guess the point is you make a habit of networking.

Andrew: I do. I do. Yeah. Yeah. I I go out to lunch with people.

I go to my BNI meetings. I I touch base with people from time to time. Mhmm. Try to interact with their social media. Right.

It’s that’s that’s probably the the biggest routine and habit that I that I have. Personal life, on the other hand, I tend I try to do the best that I can practicing what I preach Mhmm. With respect to diet. Yeah. I I mentioned You’re

Peter: a fine specimen, by the way.

Andrew: Oh, well, thank you.

Peter: We can’t see you.

Andrew: I I tend to be pretty experimental with an extreme with the things that I do. Okay. So whether that’s fasting or, getting on into ketosis or I I I tend to take things to the nth degree to kinda see what it actually does. A little bit of an experiment of one.

Peter: A little bit of a guinea pig

Andrew: with yourself. A little bit a guinea pig. And everybody’s you know, the more people you you treat, as an, as a medical provider, you see not everybody responds the same. So those aren’t universally applicable. But, yeah, I I tend to be very, fairly clean in what I eat.

I don’t I don’t do a whole lot of well, I couldn’t tell you the last time I had soda. You know, I grew up in the Midwest. So that was definitely a part of a part of my diet growing up. I don’t tend to eat a whole lot of breads. I do like chips, specifically tortilla chips, but, you know, you you gotta temper that a little bit.

And then a lot of healthy fats. Butter is is great. Grass fed butter. Eat a lot of butter.

Peter: Love that.

Andrew: And then trying to drink as much water as I can. Pretty basic stuff. Right? Right. It’s not as far as habits and routines for my diet are concerned, they’re not complicated things that I’m doing.

Peter: Right. So you’re looking at just long time it’s more like lifestyle, like

Andrew: Well, yeah. Life habits determine your lifestyle. Right? So, I try to develop lifestyle things as opposed to, as opposed to just one off habits. That’s where the, you know, people diet all the time.

And if you are dieting, that means that’s not the way that you normally are. So Right. I try to develop habits, lifestyle habits.

Peter: So you’re eating, not dieting. Exactly.

Andrew: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. Fitness routines?

Andrew: Well, as you know, I bought a fixer upper a few years ago. So

Peter: Oh, home. It’s mostly just

Andrew: working on my house. Okay. I used to be pretty active, with running. Yeah. Prior to that, in college, least, I was I was into triathlons.

So that sustained sustained, endurance exercise. Haven’t really been doing a whole lot of that since we bought this house. Mhmm. But I’m still very active. We have a dog, so I play with the dog.

I’m working in the house. I’m either in the attic or in the crawl space or doing whatever with that. Mhmm. We have a decent amount of property, so clearing the property has been a lot of work physically. Mhmm.

And I get to the gym from time to time. So I tend to swim more at the gym. It’s little bit more meditative for me, at this point. I’m not really in the in the main part of the gym very often, and I haven’t been for a couple of

Peter: years. What do you do for fun?

Andrew: Boy. Do have fun? Yeah. A lot of hiking. So Anna and I love going out and and hitting the trails when we can.

I tend to be pretty creative at my house, so a lot of carpentry and a lot of, sort of artistic things around the house. Yeah. That sounds trite, I guess. Hanging out with friends. We, at one point in time, were very into going to breweries.

I guess we still are. Yeah. Living in the Pacific Northwest makes that easier. Uh-huh. Yep.

2015, I think it was, we hit every brewery in Seattle, which at the time was, like, 45, I think. So Bang. For two people with careers, that was That’s pretty good. Lot.

Peter: And you’re still thin?

Andrew: And Still fairly thin. Yeah. That that was most of my carbs at that point in time.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: Yeah. I I still read quite a bit. I’m not doing novels as much as I used to, but, yeah, a lot of reading. I spent, honestly, probably most of my free time learning, researching. Mhmm.

Not necessarily what I do professionally, not necessarily medicine, but just being curious about whatever. Right? I mean, you can start out researching one thing and end up you know, you take seven or eight left turns, and you’re researching something completely different by the end of the evening.

Peter: Right. That’s called the rabbit hole.

Andrew: The rabbit hole. Yeah. That’s not, that’s not that uncommon for me.

Peter: Cool. So, you mentioned books. Any books that you would recommend for folks just thinking about business or life in general?

Andrew: Personally, personal development’s a big thing for me. K. I went to a Jesuit school. Mhmm. I’m not Jesuit.

I’m not Catholic. I’m not Christian.

Peter: K.

Andrew: But the the focus of that is not only service, but also that personal development Mhmm. Personal enlightenment, if you wanna talk about it in in terms of Eastern medicine. Yeah. So I spend a lot of time or at least I used to when I was reading more more avidly, things that are not just, studies, learning about anything I can. K.

In particular, and it’s it’s partly a product of where I grew up, in West Michigan, learning a lot about religions Mhmm. As as religious studies, not because I was religious, but because I was curious. It’s a, you know, it’s a it’s a sociological look into humanity Mhmm. When you start reading about religions. So

Peter: Are there is is it what is it about Western Michigan that, lends itself to that?

Andrew: It’s sort of the main hub of the Christian Reformed Church. Okay. Okay. Which so Calvin College is the big one that’s there Got it. Which is a very good school.

Yeah. It’s a, fairly conservative Protestant Yeah. Religion.

Peter: Got it.

Andrew: And I neither one of my parents were from there, and everybody there is related to everybody else

Peter: I see.

Andrew: It seems. And we were sort of the outliers. Got it. So, that shaped me quite a bit growing up Mhmm. Not having that immediate connection, the whether it was the Dutch aspect because most people are Dutch there Okay.

Or the Christian Reformed Church, the CRC. Yeah. Not having either one of those Got it. Sort of put up a couple of barriers. Mhmm.

Mhmm. But I learned from it, which was which was

Peter: So getting back to the books, were there any books in particular that So one of

Andrew: the ones that really had an impact on me was religious literacy. It’s by guy named Steven Protherto Protherto. He’s a Boston College or Boston University professor and has since since he wrote that book has started ruffling some feathers. Okay. But at the time, it’s a it’s a pretty decent look into the development, of some of the major religions, around the world and it’s really intended to give people literacy in those different religions.

And he was coming at it from a standpoint of, basically, people who understand things about other people tend to not be as, maybe not critical, aggressive Mhmm. Towards those people. Mhmm. A lot of that aggression is born out of ignorance Right. Assumptions.

So that that was kind of the the point. So it

Peter: might generate a little more empathy?

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Empathy, understanding, we’re all the same, all that all that trite stuff. Any

Peter: other, any other books that had kind of a impact on you in that way?

Andrew: From a religious standpoint, I don’t think so. One of my other favorite books that I’ve read in the last couple of years, I can’t think of the guy’s first name, and the last name has a bunch of consonants slammed together. I think it was Richard Mlodinow, and it’s called Subliminal.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: And it’s about the way that we interact with people. He’s a he’s a psychologist of some sort of these social psychologist Mhmm. About touches on marketing and a few of these other things, but about the way that we interact with people and how that either conveys your messaging or how how we can take advantage of other people. And it’s a it’s kind of a deep dive into the the nonverbal ways that we communicate with each other. Okay.

Yeah. Subliminal. I think it’s Richard Bloden now.

Peter: Is it, does it deal with a little of the brain science?

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Very much brain science. Okay. So I I studied I was a psychology major among other things.

I was also a biology major and a criminal justice person, but, I studied psychology when I was in in undergrad. Okay. So kind of have a big interest in in the way that the brain works, the way we perceive things. Mhmm. So that’s been that was a really fun read for me.

Peter: Cool. We’ll have links to any books we talk about in the, show notes in addition to links to your, clinics.

Andrew: Ah,

Peter: perfect. So we can, if folks wanna find out more about you and your practice, they can certainly get ahold of you that way. So so who inspires you?

Andrew: I think you can find inspiration in pretty much everybody in in some capacity. Mhmm. When you see people who are the name brand, inspiration people

Peter: Right.

Andrew: What I tend to see is a lot of problems in other areas that are not their chosen success. Okay. Right? K. Elon Musk, guess, is currently the, the the self imploding person over the last year.

Yeah. And he’s achieved all these amazing things, but at what cost? Right. Right? I feel like everybody can teach us something Mhmm.

About something. It’s it’s not necessarily always going to be useful for you. Mhmm. Might not be some something that’s revelatory, but Yeah. You can you can learn something from everybody.

And especially, you know, looking at, you know, business, for example, people who have achieved what I consider to be a fairly balanced, life work success. Mhmm. You’re a great example.

Peter: Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank

Andrew: you. I know a little bit about your story coming out of the corporate world, and you’re not there anymore. No. And I I see that as a big step. Yes.

People who are just interested and engaged and Mhmm. And, otherwise, good people to be around are the ones that inspire me the most. And you wanna find out why, how

Peter: Right.

Andrew: How they’ve achieved that.

Peter: Right. Well, that’s why we’re asking you these questions.

Andrew: Well, right. Yeah.

Peter: You inspired us, so you inspired me. Is there anybody along the way that has inspired you? So let’s not talk about now, but let’s just talk about like you mentioned, an uncle. Are there any other folks, you know, parents, grandparents, I mean anybody in particular that that just sort of inspired you in a particular way?

Andrew: Sure. So part of the reason I got out of Western medicine is that I had too much curiosity and a bit of an antagonistic personality. Mhmm. And I think that, my parents inadvertently, instilled that in me. Okay.

I’m sure if they were listening to this, they’d be shaking their head thinking, yes. Yes. That’s that’s absolutely true. I remember I don’t remember how old I was, but I remember a conversation with my dad. He’s an early baby boomer.

He was going to college. He was trying to get out of the town that he grew up in. Mhmm. And he sort of felt whether this was implied or this was just his perception that he really only had a couple of tracks if he was gonna go to college. He’d become an engineer, which he did, a lawyer or a doctor.

That was all it was really open to him. And for my mom, it was pretty much a nurse or a teacher. She was also the first in her in her family to go to college. I think my mom loved what she did. I don’t know as though my dad did.

And, I remember him relating that story, and I don’t know if he actually said this specifically, but you can kinda do whatever you want. You don’t have to do what what you’re expected to do. Mhmm. And that that really changed the way that I looked, at what’s expected of you, whether it’s in school or business or or life for that matter. Mhmm.

Mhmm. That’s still don’t I don’t I don’t think about it as often as I used to, but I I can still see that thread working its way through a lot of the things that I do. And I try to bring a fresh perspective to all of those different things. Right.

Peter: Clearly had an impact on you.

Andrew: Yeah. It absolutely did. And that’s probably why I’m he didn’t push me towards Chinese medicine, but that’s probably why I ended up, you know, going this route is because I I wanted to do things different, things that felt right. And and, you know, the expectation when you’re in when you’re at a at a good school and you’re on track to go to medical school and you’re doing well, the expectation is that you go and you get your degree and you do your residency at some prestigious hospital, and I didn’t want that. Mhmm.

And I sort of felt, I sort of felt allowed to to not pursue that by that conversation that we had had.

Peter: So you wanna tell us just a little bit about intermittent fasting? I know, you know, not asking you as, for your professional opinion per se, but more about just your experience and, you know, how you would explain it to. I’m just asking you personally.

Andrew: Sure. Well, so intermittent fasting is just not eating intermittently, and it can mean a lot of different things. I referred earlier to sixteen, eighteen hours a day of not eating. Okay. There’s alternate day fasting, which is a twenty four to thirty hour, basically skipping a full day.

Mhmm. There are doing a couple of days, a week, consecutive days would be considered intermittent fasting. So, like, every Tuesday, Wednesday, you don’t eat or you do fast. What it’s designed to do is really, affect the endocrine system more than anything else. The way that the the various chemicals floating around in your body are being produced, when they’re being produced, and how they’re reacting with your nervous system.

Okay. Not everybody does well on the same intermittent fast or or so, I I guess, to to back up for a second, regular fasting is just longer. You can only do it once. Right? Right.

So take a week and don’t eat anything, basically. That’s that’s that’s kind of a dumbed down version of it, but that’s that’s essentially what it is. Right. So you’re doing this to see long term effects. Okay.

And not everybody’s bodies respond the same way. The same way that some people can look at a cookie and gain a pound and other people can eat the whole pack and not see any change. Sure. The same thing happens when we’re talking about intermittent fasting.

Peter: Okay.

Andrew: I tend to feel really good not eating breakfast.

Peter: Mhmm.

Andrew: I I don’t if I do eat breakfast, I tend to, get hungrier faster in the day. Mhmm. I tend to crave things that are more carbohydrate rich. Mhmm. And I don’t have as mentally, I’m not as clear or as sharp or as quick.

So I and I sort of trained my body to to be okay with that. And it’s really I mean, skipping breakfast. It’s not it’s not like I’m skipping multiple days at a time anymore at this point, typically anyhow.

Peter: Is intermittent fasting just a way of life for you now?

Andrew: Yeah. For the most part, if I’m not intermittent fasting, it’s usually on typically speaking on the weekends, I’m still not eating any carbohydrate before one or two. So bacon and eggs tends to be the to be the thing in the morning. Got it. And that’s really so really what that’s designed from a medical standpoint to do is to not stoke cortisol levels, not spike your insulin levels, which has an impact on cortisol levels.

And it gives you a smoother curve throughout the day. You’re not getting these big highs and lows. Everybody knows about the sugar crash. Right? So Right.

You’re you’re avoiding that among the things, and not just the first one, but also throughout the day. Mhmm. It’s easier on your adrenal glands. I sleep better, when we’re in that situation. So, I’ve done keto, ketosis a lot over the years, at various times.

And this has been a nice balance of of realistic eating habits, with, still seeing some of the same benefits and not typically in ketosis, but, but again, some of the same endocrine benefits. Mhmm.

Peter: How, would you describe business and life done well? What does that mean to you?

Andrew: I think the long and short of it is being happy and making those around you happy. Mhmm. I’m just not surrounded by, but I have a lot of people in my life who are very heavy on one side or the other of that that biz in life. Mhmm. They’re they’re either in a dead end job that they don’t like, or they’re frustrated with it constantly.

Or that’s all they have is is their work, and their personal lives are pretty vanilla. And for some people, that’s what they want,

Peter: I suppose. Mhmm.

Andrew: But earlier when I talked about not necessarily wanting to have the three or four clinics anymore

Peter: Right.

Andrew: I sort of had to revise what my goals were, and a lot of those are more on the personal side now. Mhmm. It’s a good balance. So it’s a work life balance. Right?

So it’s not living to work, working to live sort of, but I’m passionate about what I do. So there’s a little bit of a living to work. But, yeah, I don’t I enjoy not having to work forty hours a week if I don’t want to. Mhmm. And I might not be doing anything in particular.

It might be hanging out with friends. It might be going on vacation. It might just be hanging out at home. It’s not necessarily this glamorous jet setting lifestyle with all this vacation time because I don’t get vacation time per se. Right.

But not feeling like I’m tethered to my job because I’ve gotta achieve something that, you know, what what the standard forty hours of of work and success. That’s not that’s not what I want anymore. Mhmm. Mhmm. And I think that people who have made that realization, tend to be happier, and those around them are happier.

And the irony is that as soon as I made that, that realization or have that realization, things started happening easier in my business side as well. So, I think that there’s possibly a little bit of self sabotage that that people go through, especially in the small business world. Well, I know that people have a lot of self sabotage in the business world. But In in what way? I I think that you’re primed to see the broader picture and be able to pick up on, opportunities when you’re not as stressed out and single mindedly focused.

Peter: Got it. Yeah. If you’re not stressing and you kinda just take a step back, maybe open yourself up to what the world has to offer.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s the cutting off your nose to spite your face sort of thing. Okay. Right? Okay.

You’re not if you’ve got this project that you have to finish Mhmm. Why do you have to finish it? Because you’ve set that arbitrary goal and you sacrifice three or four other things that could have actually, in the long run, put you ahead of where finishing this project gets you Mhmm. Mhmm. That that’s not a good business model.

It’s not a good life model.

Peter: Right. So how do you set goals for yourself?

Andrew: That’s something I could probably work on, setting more concrete goals. I it goes back to that happiness. I like I said, I’m pretty undisciplined in my business. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Peter: Not your practice, mind you.

Andrew: Right. No. I I yeah. I’m very disciplined in my practice, but actually running the business, which is a completely different thing than actually practicing. Of course.

I I tend to just check-in on a fairly regular basis and figure out where my stress levels are at, whether or not I’m happy. If I am, then that’s a good place to be, and I like what I’m doing. I, you know, I I sort of have to cut back every now and then. I take on too many projects, and I, sometimes the personal life, overcomes a lot of the the things at work. Mhmm.

Just finding that balance. I mean, that’s, you know, it’s I’m in Chinese medicine. Everything’s based on balance. Right?

Peter: Okay. So

Andrew: it it’s it’s just making sure that you’re walking that middle path, the Tao, and all that stuff. Right? So it’s, just constantly bringing yourself back to center. That’s kind of my goal, and I don’t I don’t really have a lot of goals past, wanting to be just happy and content and and feeling engaged and and, like, my mind is stimulated when I’m at work and at home.

Peter: As we wrap up here, is there anything else you wanna add? Anything we didn’t talk about?

Andrew: I think one of the things that’s led to some of what you’re seeing as success in in my life, and I’m not saying I don’t feel successful Sure. Is that I have always had 15 different irons in the fire. Okay. I have a doctorate. I think I tend to be more at the mastery level as opposed to the doctorate level, but the mastery level over a wider breadth of things.

Mhmm. That that single my I haven’t had single-minded focus since I was an undergrad. I’ve always had a couple of different jobs at the same time. I’ve always had I mean, I I had three different locations at one point in time for my practice. I owned part of a business that did essentially construction, at one point in time.

I like, I’m I’m kind of all over the place in what I do. Mhmm. And I think that has allowed me to achieve some of the success in part because it’s it’s what it has allowed me to see some of the opportunities. Mhmm. Right?

Yeah. If you’re only looking for opportunities in one vertical, there’s fewer. There’s just definitionally, there’s fewer.

Peter: Right.

Andrew: So it’s it’s really allowed me to sort of, take advantage of of a of a broader set of skills, I think. Mhmm. Mhmm. And it’s made me happier. That’s for sure.

Peter: Got it. So you’re a bit of a modern renaissance man?

Andrew: Jack of all trades. Yes.

Peter: Yeah.

Andrew: Master Jack of all trades, master of one.

Peter: I hope I’m your patient.

Andrew: So Yeah. Well, yes. Yes.

Peter: Andrew, thank you so much for coming today, and we will have links to, everything that we talked about that’s relevant books, your practice.

Andrew: Yeah. Thank you, Peter. I’m, looking forward to, to seeing this up on iTunes. Right on.

Peter: Thanks for listening to this episode of Biz and Life Done Well with Peter Wilson. You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and most of the other popular podcast platforms. Please tell your friends about us and leave us a review so even more people will find out about us. Thanks again. We’ll see you soon.